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The Katyn Forest Massacre

Article about: Or.......maybe the guy who originally made the poster just liked the way the couple of slanted letter tops looked...never knowing that someday in the future someone would "patent"

  1. #91

    Default Re: The Katyn Forest Massacre

    Quote by Itakdalej View Post
    Timing .... Stalingrad has fallen, or germans surrendered 2nd February 1943, graves in Katyn April 1943.
    With respect it doesn't explain or support the argument that the Katyn "JUDE NKVD" poster might have been used to motivate German troops by suggesting this could happen to them if they lost the war.

    Almost 11,237 of those fighting and dying at Stalingrad were convinced of ultimate German victory—they wrote as much in their letters home. So why use this poster as motivation if the soldiers at Stalingrad of January 1943 still believed in their ultimate victory and wouldn't other German soldiers also not believe in the same victory? And if that were the case then it was an unnecessary piece of defeatist propaganda.
    Last edited by StefanM; 10-01-2012 at 05:54 PM.
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  2. #92

    Default Re: The Katyn Forest Massacre

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ID:	405302Here are some scans of documents that were given on 14 October 1992 to then Polish President Lech Walesa by russian then President Boris Yelcyn.
    These document have been transalated (Polish), however I will show the original versions (or copies in russian).
    These were published in a book named: "Documents of Genocide "

  3. #93

    Default Re: The Katyn Forest Massacre

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ID:	405306First document is one that some People are familiar with: it is a memo from chief of NKVD Beria to Joseph Stalin.
    Across the front page are signatures of : Stalin, Woroszylow, Molotov and Mikojan.
    And the document says that in NKVD POW camps across russia and in prisons of western Ukraine there is a large number of Polish Officers, Police, members of Polish Underground/subversive organisations that HATE THE SOVIET COMMUNIST SYSTEM.
    That these People even in their current predicament are still doing anti-soviet propaganda and are just waiting to be freed so that they can go and fight against the soviet Union.
    Page 2 has detailed numbers of how many People they are holding: 14.736 Officers (97% Polish) in the NKVD POW camps. In Ukraine and Belorussia prisons there are 18.632 people of whom 10.685 are Polish.
    " Taking into account that all the above are hardened and not wanting to change enemies of soviet government, NKVD ZSRR will:
    In special mode to try their cases with the highest penalty - execution by shooting....
    Their cases are to be tried without calling the accused, without putting forward any proof or charges ...."
    Last page par III : "Consideration and adoption of resolution of cases give to the three : Kabulow, Mierkulow, Basztakow.
    Signed : Beria

  4. #94

    Default Re: The Katyn Forest Massacre

    Nex document is dated 9 March 1959 and it to Nikita Chruszczow from A. Szelepin who was in charge of a National Security Comitee and it is marked TOP SECRET. It says that since 1940 there are files and other materials that deal with the execution in that year of Polish POW's, interned personnel, etc. That together after the "Three ruled " 21.857 people were shot : 4.421 in Katyn Forest, 3.820 in Starobielsk and 6.311 in Ostaszkow. Also 7.305 were shot in other Camps and Prisons of West Ukraine and West Belorussia.
    From the moment of executions in 1940 no one has been given any information from these documents and all 21.857 Personel files are kept in a special locked room.
    "From our view these documents have no value, historical or other, and we doubt they would be of value to our Polish friends, on the contrary if discovered they could pose problems for us, more so that the official version of events is that germans did it ".
    "So we are asking for permission to destroy these, however we could leave minutes of meeetings of the three and supporting memos ".Attachment 405318

  5. #95

    Default Re: The Katyn Forest Massacre

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ID:	405319Next document is marked TOP SECRET, from 1959 sometime....
    It allows destruction of the 21.857 personnel documents held by National Security Comitee, however allowing the minutes of meeting, etc to be kept in a special file. (these are the ones I have posted first).

  6. #96

    Default Re: The Katyn Forest Massacre

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ID:	405325Next document dated 15 April 1971, Top Secret again, on top of the document : "Proletarians of all countries unite" and it is addressed to :
    Comrade Brezhnev, Suslow, Andropov, Ponomariow , Gromyko (all of the soviet hierarchy) and it deals with the strategy for soviet ambassador in London and Warsaw to deal with a campaign of so called Katyn Case.

  7. #97

    Default Re: The Katyn Forest Massacre

    I will post more documents from the book tomorrow.

  8. #98

    Default Re: The Katyn Forest Massacre

    Itakdalej "Timing .... Stalingrad has fallen, or Germans surrendered 2nd February 1943, graves in Katyn April 1943."


    Quote by 4thskorpion View Post
    With respect it doesn't explain or support the argument that the Katyn "JUDE NKVD" poster might have been used to motivate German troops by suggesting this could happen to them if they lost the war.

    Almost 11,237 of those fighting and dying at Stalingrad were convinced of ultimate German victory—they wrote as much in their letters home. So why use this poster as motivation if the soldiers at Stalingrad of January 1943 still believed in their ultimate victory and wouldn't other German soldiers also not believe in the same victory? And if that were the case then it was an unnecessary piece of defeatist propaganda.
    How does this timing Not explain the motivation of the poster for the German people? A major defeat had just been handed to them by their sworn to the death enemy. An Entire German Army had ceased to exist.This was unheard of-an unimaginable impossibility. It must have been like a thunder strike to the unsuspecting German people that such a thing could have happened. And you don't believe this might have been significant? That it Wouldn't have stirred the Germans to do more extreme measures to rouse the people and prevent this now obviously formidable and barbaric enemy from unleashing the same form of savagery on the German people themselves? As you said, up UNTIL the final surrender at Stalingrad, all of the personal letters and communications were still confidently expectant of victory, but when Stalingrad Fell, these illusions abruptly Vanished. The full sudden realization dawned on the populace in general that this savage enemy was Not to be reckoned with lightly, that they were, Indeed, a fearsome and relentless enemy to be acutely aware of and something absolutely to be anxious about. If they could and did brutally massacre a huge number of a people who you admit they did not think very highly of or respect at all, then surely it would mean an even Worse doom awaited the German people who Were respected but/and Hated by the Russian people? If they were facing the juggernaut on the horizon of this coming beastial enemy with blood in their eyes, then, absolutely, this would be all the encouragement needed to rouse the people to action lest this fate and worse horror befall Them.
    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  9. #99

    Default Re: The Katyn Forest Massacre

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ID:	405331Here are some pages fro a book by Guy Sajer named "Forgotten Soldier" considered to be one of the best autobiographies of WW2 german soldiers.
    These pages deal with fall of Stalingrad and soldiers mind set.

  10. #100

    Default Re: The Katyn Forest Massacre

    Quote by Wagriff View Post
    Itakdalej "Timing .... Stalingrad has fallen, or Germans surrendered 2nd February 1943, graves in Katyn April 1943."




    How does this timing Not explain the motivation of the poster for the German people? A major defeat had just been handed to them by their sworn to the death enemy. An Entire German Army had ceased to exist.This was unheard of-an unimaginable impossibility. It must have been like a thunder strike to the unsuspecting German people that such a thing could have happened. And you don't believe this might have been significant? That it Wouldn't have stirred the Germans to do more extreme measures to rouse the people and prevent this now obviously formidable and barbaric enemy from unleashing the same form of savagery on the German people themselves? As you said, up UNTIL the final surrender at Stalingrad, all of the personal letters and communications were still confidently expectant of victory, but when Stalingrad Fell, these illusions abruptly Vanished. The full sudden realization dawned on the populace in general that this savage enemy was Not to be reckoned with lightly, that they were, Indeed, a fearsome and relentless enemy to be acutely aware of and something absolutely to be anxious about. If they could and did brutally massacre a huge number of a people who you admit they did not think very highly of or respect at all, then surely it would mean an even Worse doom awaited the German people who Were respected but/and Hated by the Russian people? If they were facing the juggernaut on the horizon of this coming beastial enemy with blood in their eyes, then, absolutely, this would be all the encouragement needed to rouse the people to action lest this fate and worse horror befall Them.
    As I have written previously there were certainly powerful propaganda images of an anti Jewish Bolshevik theme or Russian beast normally caracitured as Jewish commissar because this was a theme that German public would have had empathy with as it had been part of anti-Semitic propaganda in Germany pre-WWII (as it had also in Polish anti-Semitic propaganda the interwar period).

    I still maintain that the Katyn poster, an image of "untermensch" soldiers being shot by "untermensch" or "Jude NKVD" would had no resonance with the German public any more than it had empathy with the Polish and Eastern slaves working for years amongst them. As I have said before it makes no sense to me that the masters of propaganda would chose this poster to rouse the German public or its soldiers when other more relevant images murder of women and children and rape by the Bolshevik beast would have had more resonance.

    Has anyone found other posters for a German language audience with the clumsy heading "JUDE NKVD"? Or with "NKVD"?
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

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