The Katyn Forest Massacre

[Thanatos]

A rather disturbing depliction of the massacre.I don't know it's origins.
The Soviets appear to be enjoying themselves.



Very sad thing.
Cheers
Dave

[Wagriff]

Sadly enough, it's probably more realistic than not....

[A.J. Zawadzki]

A rather disturbing depliction of the massacre.I don't know it's origins.
The Soviets appear to be enjoying themselves.

It’s a German wartime propaganda poster. There were several versions that were distributed in occupied countries. Posted below is a version from my collection, printed in B&W. It’s supposedly an original period print, although I have not been able to verify this. You’ll note the typical racist overtones.

The Germans propaganda machine jumped on the opportunity to expose this discovery and thereby drive a wedge in the Allied camp. Unfortunately for them the Soviet counter-propaganda was very effective.

Sadly enough, it's probably more realistic than not....

There were various killing centers, and the recent Andrzej Walda film “Katyń” has a very chilling depiction of one of them in the closing moments. I almost hesitate posting the link to the climactic ending scenes as the movie is well worth watching in its entirety. Of course, it’s an ending everyone knows, but as one gets to know the characters it magnifies and makes the horror of what happened more real.

Katyn Forest Massacre by NKVD Communist Zionists (english subtitles) - YouTube

Regards,
Tony

[Thanatos]

Cheers Tony,I've been wondering about the origins of this "poster" since I first saw it a few years back.
Thank you mate.
Cheers
Dave

[A.J. Zawadzki]

You're most welcome Dave.

Here's the slightly different version used in wartime Slovakia.

Regards,
Tony

[StefanM]

Well, this thread isn't actually concerning the Holocaust here and I'd really rather not get into a debate over it, if that's okey. The only related bit is the fact that Himmler, in particular, was appalled by the Katyn and the other Polish mass executions and was concerned(and rightly so, it appeared) that the Germans would be accused of the killings. In fact, during the Nuremberg trials, this crime did, indeed, come out precisely as being leveled at and "proved" that the Germans were responsible. It wasn't until decades later that people dared come forth and secret documents were brought into daylight that concisely showed the Russian's guilt and actions in the killings.
As for who ordered the killings, I have to admit that I find it unusual, in the light of the once secret papers and testimonies coming into the public eyes, that anyone would believe that Stalin was not the origin of the orders. Certainly, Beria was an Evil man, but he was, afterall, an Underling of Stalin and I cannot imagine for a moment that he operated autonomously performing major policy acts without the full impetus of Stalin making it happen. This would be similar to saying that Himmler or Heydrich set up the death camp system on their own initiatives and Hitler had no awareness of it. Stalin was a Very unique leader and very little if anything would have Dared to be done without first coming from him. Sometimes I suspect that Zukhov, Molotov and all the rest had to wire back to him for permission to wipe their own noses. But, anyway, this would make for a Very interesting and, no doubt, strenuously debated discussion topic thread in the "Discussions" group! Definitely a lively topic!

I accept that the words "that the Germans were appalled by the murders" are your words rather than any expression by Himmler or "the Germans". Himmler might rightly have seen the potential of the discovery to drive a split between the Soviets and the western allies that is not in dispute.

The Germans were not the least concerned by the widespread media reports of the murder of tens of thousands of Jews, Poles and others prior to 1943 so why would they give a jot about 14,000 more Poles in the forest of Katyn? They weren't at all concerned even a year later when reports were printed of the Germans murdering some 20,000 civilians one day in Wola during the Warsaw Rising. If they were that concerned why even alert the world to the Katyn forest discovery in the first place? No body would have taken notice of just another mass grave - Eastern Europe was covered with them already.

The Memoradum of March 1940 is authored by Beria to Stalin not the other way around. It wasn't Stalin who asked Beria to execute the PoWs the memo is clear Beria asked for the supreme penalty of death by shooting not Stalin. Stalin and the other signatories were required to approve Beria's request. If it was Stalin's order alone why was the memo not from Stalin to Beria with only Stalin's signature?

This is a translation of the Memorandum header text:

Memorandum from the Head of the NKVD
of the USSR
L.Beria for Stalin
(March 1940)
USSR
Top Secret
People’s Commissariat
For Internal Affairs 5 iii 1940
March 1940
No. 794/5
Moscow
Committee Of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolshevik)
To Comrade Stalin

Hitler was also a very unique leader but The setting up of the Russian and Eastern volunteer legions was not sanctioned by Hitler who was opposed to having such sub humans but these legions were originally set up unbeknownst to him and against his wishes. So independent action did indeed happen right under Hitler's nose.

As you say a lively topic ... especially for us Poles

[StefanM]

Are you meaning 6,127 Soviet deserters executed by the NKVD? Because if that is the case then Wikipedia is correct to omit this as its a entry about the illegal execution of Polish P.O.W.s not Soviet deserters.

Or are these Polish deserters - please clarify.

Along with POWs , generals, etc the memo merely states 6127 deserters without classifying them as Polish or Soviet. Along with "Members of various counter-revolutionary and insurrectionary organisations and various counter-revolutionary elements - 5,345 " who also make up the total to be executed under Beria's infamous March 1940 memo. Would there have been many Red Army deserters in March 1940 (or since 17 September 1939) given the USSR was not at war?

With respect dastier, Katyn wiki page does not exclusively mention or deal only with executions of Polish PoWs:

"Those who died at Katyn included an admiral, two generals, 24 colonels, 79 lieutenant colonels, 258 majors, 654 captains, 17 naval captains, 3,420 NCOs, seven chaplains, three landowners, a prince, 43 officials, 85 privates, 131 refugees, 20 university professors, 300 physicians; several hundred lawyers, engineers, and teachers; and more than 100 writers and journalists as well as about 200 pilots"

No mention of "Spies and saboteurs - 347" in the wiki entry either because it is not based on a translation of the actual Beria memo but on a CIA report about Katyn!

[Scout]

I don't understand why we can't get a straight story on this subject we are talking about a 70 year old crime

The straight story IS out there: The Russians executed the Poles and the Germans got blamed period

[Wagriff]

True that Beria presented a proposal for the murders to Stalin, but also true is that the order came back that very same day(March 5,1940) from Stalin signed by himself, Molotov and the other Politburo's to implement them. It is hard to imagine Beria making such a suggestion to Stalin simply out of the blue with no prior encouragement from the Man of Steel. Likely, we'll never know, but perhaps Stalin actually felt a twinge of apprehension(hard to believe, I know) over an outright huge and impossible to hide slaughter. It's more likely, though, that Stalin was, as usual, just thinking 3 moves ahead and covering his own guilt in the very likely event that such an act was discovered and leaked to the outside World and bring on the inevitable Worldwide condemnation before he was even done ordering it. In any case, for whatever reason, Stalin apparently wanted and needed to make such a serious move to appear to be textbook legal and all above the board, but Nothing happened in Russia without Stalin's approval. If it did, not good things happened. I did, however, like the bit about Stalin introducing Beria to Von Ribbentrop as "Our Himmler". You have to love the irony...Both "Himmler's" eventually turned on their beloved Masters and both paid a Very steep price for their betrayals- despite both outliving their leaders.

[StefanM]

It's more likely, though, that Stalin was, as usual, just thinking 3 moves ahead and covering his own guilt in the very likely event that such an act was discovered

Sorry but IMHO Stalin would not have cared one bit!

In March 1940 at the time of the Katyn war crime Stalin wasn't expecting that his then ally, Hitler, was planning to invade the USSR. Had Germany not invaded the USSR who would have discovered the forest graves? Stalin and his regime were used to previous mass deportations, mass exterminations, mass starvation on an truly gargantuan scale why would he have been concerned with a few thousand Poles being discovered?