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The Katyn Forest Massacre

Article about: Or.......maybe the guy who originally made the poster just liked the way the couple of slanted letter tops looked...never knowing that someday in the future someone would "patent"

  1. #51

    Default re: The Katyn Forest Massacre

    Quote by Scout View Post

    Yes, Poland was between a rock and a hard place for a looong time.
    Still is... Poles should not kid themselves.

  2. #52

    Default re: The Katyn Forest Massacre

    Neighbors from hell, a quote of many and title of many books

  3. #53

    Default re: The Katyn Forest Massacre

    Quote by 4thskorpion View Post
    I think it is a big "IF" because would the German speaking population really care about what might or might not have happened to Polish prisoners at the hands of the Jewish NKVD? How would they be able to relate to the poster image itself?

    The Poles were "untermensch" to the Germans, their factories and businesses were already filled with Polish forced workers wearing the racially discriminatory "P" patch and the Germans had been killing them en masse for years before, so I don't quite see this poster being for German consumption even with the German language heading.

    A German anti-"Jewish NKVD" poster IMO would be much more likely to show a hooked-nosed Jewish-Bolshevik NKVD beast gobbling up beautiful doe-eyed helpless and ravaged German mothers clutching their dead babies in arms etc. etc rather than Polish PoWs being shot which the German population would not be able to relate to.

    It's a puzzle.
    The german population would be able to relate to Jude NKVD killers..... that were coming to germany if germany did not fight harder.

  4. #54
    ?

    Default re: The Katyn Forest Massacre

    Presumably the same ones who believe, that the moon landing was a hoax
    Especially as they are now having problems with their new lunar lander falling over on a simulated moon dust landscape, and still can't figure out how to limit radiation exposure during the trip through the Van Allen Belts.........oh I forgot, the technology of 40 yrs ago was so much more advanced that these weren't an issue in 1969. Now Iron Sky the movie might be a little far fetched!
    Cheers,
    Al

  5. #55

    Default re: The Katyn Forest Massacre

    Quote by Itakdalej View Post
    The german population would be able to relate to Jude NKVD killers..... that were coming to germany if germany did not fight harder.
    I agree they might recognise "JUDE" but have some serious doubts on the German "Joe Public" recognising "NKVD" . I think the Germans would most likely have used the more common term "Bolshevik" rather than NKVD along the lines of „jüdischen Bolschewik“ or similar. Jewish-Bolshevism was a common theme in anti-semetic Nazi propaganda (and in pre-war Polish anti-semetic propaganda). Another common German propaganda theme was anti-Christian Bolshevism such as the German produced stamp I have which was used in occupied Poland to stoke up anti Soviet sentiment in the Polish population.

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    IMO the German propaganda images and themes attached would have more resonance with the German public than an image of Polish soldiers being shot at Katyn.

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    Having said all of the above why make a "Katyn" poster (source IWM) for the French????
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    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  6. #56

    Default re: The Katyn Forest Massacre

    I think that perhaps this particular style poster might be a 'motivational' poster for soldiers, whether Germans or soldiers from various nationalities. That might explain why it is in French - for members of the Charlemagne SS.

    From Wikipedia,

    "They were arguably the last German unit to see action in a pitched battle during World War II, where they held central Berlin and the Führerbunker against the onslaught of Soviet infantry. Knowing they would not survive should Germany be defeated, they were among the last ones to surrender in the brutal house-to-house and street-to-street fighting, during the final days of the Battle in Berlin."

    The unsaid message could be 'Surrender and this is what awaits you - just like the Poles'.

    Is it printed in any other languages besides German, Slovak and French?

  7. #57

    Default re: The Katyn Forest Massacre

    Quote by dastier View Post
    I think that perhaps this particular style poster might be a 'motivational' poster for soldiers, whether Germans or soldiers from various nationalities. That might explain why it is in French - for members of the Charlemagne SS.

    From Wikipedia,

    "They were arguably the last German unit to see action in a pitched battle during World War II, where they held central Berlin and the Führerbunker against the onslaught of Soviet infantry. Knowing they would not survive should Germany be defeated, they were among the last ones to surrender in the brutal house-to-house and street-to-street fighting, during the final days of the Battle in Berlin."

    The unsaid message could be 'Surrender and this is what awaits you - just like the Poles'.

    Is it printed in any other languages besides German, Slovak and French?
    Putting aside the German and Soviet propagandists did anyone else but the Poles really care about Katyn or know what the poster was actually about sufficiently to be motivated by the imagery?

    How much weight was the Katyn story given outside of German controlled wartime media? For sure it was in the English language The Polish Review and similar as one would expect but given that the extermination of the Jews hardly, if at, all made it on the front pages of US newspapers during WII why would Katyn register more prominently is peoples minds than the reports of the mass extermination of the Jews in the press?

    That heading "JUDE-NKVD" is for me still an intriguing puzzle and this thread has been an enjoyable diversion but I have a collection to add too
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  8. #58

    Default re: The Katyn Forest Massacre

    I don't see why the German public wouldn't have been familiar with the NKVD... of course, like you said, "Jude" was by all probability a daily theme for the German civilian literally being bombarded with anti-Semitic propaganda 24/7 but I'd think that regularly playing up something as nasty as the NKVD, which was responsible for thousands upon thousands of executions and the infamous Gulag's, would certainly have had nothing but beneficial effects as far as winning over the German public/boosting morale with sights set on eventual victory.

    "This is the enemy and how he behaves. This is what will invade the fatherland if the war does not succeed"

    I can see it having been aimed at Axis troops/the Germans in general/any other public in occupied/Axis territories... by 1943, when this massacre was revealed by the Germans, I doubt there was much effort going into trying to actually win over US/British/other allied nations by means of propaganda --- this was Total War, going all in..

  9. #59

    Default re: The Katyn Forest Massacre

    Quote by 4thskorpion View Post
    Putting aside the German and Soviet propagandists did anyone else but the Poles really care about Katyn or know what the poster was actually about sufficiently to be motivated by the imagery?

    How much weight was the Katyn story given outside of German controlled wartime media? For sure it was in the English language The Polish Review and similar as one would expect but given that the extermination of the Jews hardly, if at, all made it on the front pages of US newspapers during WII why would Katyn register more prominently is peoples minds than the reports of the mass extermination of the Jews in the press?

    That heading "JUDE-NKVD" is for me still an intriguing puzzle and this thread has been an enjoyable diversion but I have a collection to add too
    I think its reasonable to think that this poster was not being directed to Poles. Other than possibly tying to exploit the existing rift between the Polish Exile government and the Soviets, what would Germany gain from the Poles in Occupied Poland?

    Polish acquiescence vis a vis the Nazi occupation of Poland?

    Polish compliance?

    Polish help in fighting the Soviets?

    Its not like Poles were going to enlist in the SS. And did the Poles need the encouragement of Germans to fight the Soviets? Were not Polish partisans already fighting both enemies of Poland?

    Soldiers are often informed and motivated in various ways - the Allies had the 'Why We Fight' movie trailers and their own posters exhorting Allied soldiers to kill the enemy. Once the Katyn Massacre was uncovered and the German brought in the Red Cross etc to propagandize the discovery and point blame at the Soviets, - I suspect Katyn would have been disclosed to the German people, as well specifically to soldiers, to remind them of 'why they fight'.

    Is there any mention of the Katyn Massacre in Nazi newspapers or Nazi film reels of the time?

  10. #60

    Default re: The Katyn Forest Massacre

    Katyn media reports which includes an interesting reference a 1944 "new" film "KATYN TRAGEDY"

    US Time Magazine (just 3 wartime reports):

    Foreign News: A Lesson in Maneuver
    May 10, 1943

    INTERNATIONAL: Pretty Kettle
    Jan 24, 1944

    RUSSIA: Day in the Forest
    Feb 07, 1944



    British Newspaper Archives
    (not extensive as many UK newspaper archives are now subscription based to search):


    KATYN TRAGEDY
    “... KATYN TRAGEDY A new documentary film, The Tragedy of the Katyn Forest, made by the Committee for Cinematograph Affairs of the ... ”
    ________________________________________Sat 26 Feb 1944, Derby Daily Telegraph, Derbyshire, England

    POLES TO AVENGE KATYN
    “... AVENGE KATYN SOLDIERS of the Polish Brigade fighting with the Red Army are making a collection for tanks from which units named ... ”
    ________________________________________Mon 07 Feb 1944, Western Daily Press, Bristol, England

    Moscow Finds Proof Of Katyn Massacre
    “... Proof Of Katyn Massacre fPHE special Soviet commission inquiring into the Katyn shootings announced Moscow to-day that it had been ... ”
    ________________________________________Wed 26 Jan 1944, Derby Daily Telegraph, Derbyshire, England

    MASSACRED POLES
    “... yesterday in Katyn Forest on the occasion the reburial of the Polish officers and men killed by the Germans in 1941, reports Moscow radio. ... ”
    ________________________________________Mon 31 Jan 1944, Derby Daily Telegraph, Derbyshire, England

    SPANISH PROFESSOR FOR SMOLENSK
    “... in the Katyn Forest. —Re-.uer. ... ”
    ________________________________________Tue 27 Apr 1943, Western Daily Press, Bristol, England

    He Blames Nazis For Massacre
    “... in the Katyn Forest, near Smolensk. He was a member of the international commission of scientists, organised by the Germans, which in 1943 investigated the incident. ... ”
    ________________________________________Thu 12 Jul 1945, Derby Daily Telegraph, Derbyshire, England

    POLISH BODIES
    “... excavations at Katyn and identify the murdered Polish officers.—Reuter. ... ”
    ________________________________________Sat 24 Apr 1943, Western Morning News, Devon, England

    CRITIC OF POLE GOVERNMENT
    “... in the Katyn Forest. Now the graves had been investigated, proving that this massacre was the usual Hitler method of wiping out enemies. There was a small minority ... ”
    ________________________________________Mon 31 Jan 1944, Derby Daily Telegraph, Derbyshire, England

    11,000 Poles Murdered By Germans
    “... of the Katyn Forest in July, 1941. BURIED NEAR ROAD The commission verified and established on the spot that the graves of the Poles shot by the Germans are situar ... ”
    ________________________________________Wed 26 Jan 1944, Hull Daily Mail, East Riding of Yorkshire, England

    EXTRA INFORMATION
    “... in the Katyn Forest near Smolensk. •* On April 12 last year the German News Agency stated that the German military authorities had discovered at ... ”
    ________________________________________Fri 21 Jan 1944, Essex Newsman, Essex, England

    LATE NEWS
    “... in the Katyn Forest. (See Page 3.) Reuters correspondent in touch with Polish circles states: The Polish Government have not yet had the opportunity of considering ... ”
    ________________________________________Tue 27 Apr 1943, Western Morning News, Devon, England

    MASSACRED POLES
    “... into the Katyn shootings, announced in Moscow to-day that it had been proved that the Polish war prisoners—numberjng over 11,000 —were killed by the Germans. In ... ”
    ________________________________________Wed 26 Jan 1944, Nottingham Evening Post, Nottinghamshire, England

    RUSSIA BREAKS WITH POLAND
    “... Nazis' Katyn Forest Allegations Soviet Government has -decided to break off diplomatic relations with the Polish Government. Molotov, Soviet Foreign Commissar, ... ”
    ________________________________________Tue 27 Apr 1943, Western Daily Press, Bristol, England

    Forest Reveals Its Horrors
    “... in the Katyn Forest have yielded evidence which the Soviet Special Commission calls indisputable proof that the Germans conducted a mass execution Polish prisoners ... ”
    ________________________________________Thu 27 Jan 1944, Western Morning News, Devon, England

    LONDON LETTER LONDON. Monday Night. has severed diplomatic relations with Poland. The Polish Government's ..
    “... in the Katyn Forest, near Smolensk, without asking for an explanation from Moscow, has angered the Soviet. The implication was that they had been murdered the ... ”
    ________________________________________Tue 27 Apr 1943, Western Daily Press, Bristol, England

    SATURDAY, JAN. 29, 1944
    “... Poles And Katyn 'pHERE is no need to regret the fact that the Polish Government has not sought to reopen the controversy about the ... ”
    ________________________________________Sat 29 Jan 1944, Western Morning News, Devon, England

    RUSSO POLISH FRONTIER
    “... into the Katyn murders.' AN M.P.'S QUERY. The Foreign Secretary is be asked by Commander 0. Locker- Llampson (O.) whether he has any statement to make' respecting ... ”
    ________________________________________Tue 18 Jan 1944, Nottingham Evening Post, Nottinghamshire, England

    RUSSIA BREAKS WITH POLAND
    “... in the Katyn Forest, near Smolensk, without asking for an explanation from Moscow has angered the Soviet. The implication was that they had been murdered the ... ”
    ________________________________________Tue 27 Apr 1943, Western Morning News, Devon, England

    POLISH PREMIER KILLED
    “... officers at Katyn. largely occupied the latter days of the Polish Prime Minister. Although the Soviet broke off diplomatic relations with the Polish Government in ... ”
    First match of your search in this article.
    ________________________________________Mon 05 Jul 1943, Hull Daily Mail, East Riding of Yorkshire, England
    RELEASED FROM GAOL
    “... prison. Katyn Forest Film new documentary film, the tragedy of the Forest, made the committee for cinematograph affairs of the Council of People's Comrntwara of ... ”
    ________________________________________Sat 26 Feb 1944, Nottingham Evening Post, Nottinghamshire, England

    UNDERSTANDING WITH HITLER DENIED
    “... in the Katyn Forest were not the cause of the break, but the climax to a long period of steady deterioration in Russo-Polish relations. ... ”
    ________________________________________Thu 29 Apr 1943, Western Daily Press, Bristol, England

    POLAND'S PREMIER KILLED IN AIR CRASH: BRITISH M.P. AMONG DEAD
    “... officers at Katyn, largely occupied the latter days of the Polish Prime Minister. Although the Soviet brcke off diplomatic relations with the Polish Government in ... ”
    ________________________________________Mon 05 Jul 1943, Derby Daily Telegraph, Derbyshire, England

    DAY-TO-DAY DIARY OF THE WAR
    “... prisoners the Katyn Forest, near Smolensk. The report stated that had been established that the Poles were killed by the Germans. THURSDAY, JANUARY 27 The Russians ... ”
    ________________________________________Sat 29 Jan 1944, Cheltenham Chronicle, Gloucestershire, England

    ROAD POLICY
    “... on the Katyn graves may be taken as indicating that there is desire whatever this country to reopen this painful question. is difficult to believe, in the light of ... ”
    ________________________________________Fri 28 Jan 1944, Western Morning News, Devon, England

    Young Britain Sir,—What does the Archbishop of Canterbury mean by talking about gross immorality by our maidens ..
    “... Russians at Katyn; the Soviet investigations effectively exposed these stories. 1939 we were entertained with most convincing accounts, supported by an impressive ... ”
    First match of your search in this article.
    ________________________________________
    Thu 24 Feb 1944, Western Morning News, Devon, England
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

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