Good looking bikes.
Good looking bikes.
Love those motorcycles!
All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.
"Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne
While there are similarities between the VIS 35 and the FN Browning Hi Power, in his book VIS Radom, William York writes that the claimed influenced of the Hi Power on the design of the VIS 35 is a misconception. Instead he writes that the VIS 35 and Hi Power were parallel developments.
York writes that ''its design was heavily borrowed" from the Colt 1911 (another John Browning design) but with significant differences. He also cites the Gabilondo y Cia .45 caliber Ruby as a design influence. York further writes that both Robert Berger and Peter Kokalis consider the accepted idea that the VIS was designed with the assistance of engineers from Fabrique Nationale to be a myth.
York acknowledges that VIS designers Wilniewczyc and Skrzypinski would have been aware of both the FN Browning Model 1930 Hi Efficiency and Model 1935 Hi Power. York also includes a copy of the 1932 dated Polish patent for the VIS 35 in his book.
Last edited by dastier; 11-04-2012 at 06:06 PM. Reason: Added cover pics 'VIS Radom' and 'Fn Browning Pistols'
In the post above you quote me and link me to saying, that the Vis 35 developed from the FN GP35.
That I didnt say, but its a common misconception as the name Browning is often linked to the GP35.
The brilliant firearms designer designed the 1911 way before the Vis35 was fielded.
The Vis and GP BOTH were fielded in 1935 hence the model designation, so difficult to copy the exact design.
How ever the GP were in the works a while before it was fielded. Browning had some design ideas, but died before he could finish the GP.
There are influences between the Browning family of guns/1911 and the Vis but also differences. The 1911 used a swinging link, the Vis does not(neither does the GP). The 1911 has a bushing, the Vis does not (neither does the GP), The Vis has a feature for laying down the hammer on a live round (careful with wartime pistols as the hammer block can srystalize on automatics like the P38 and others of wartime finish) - neither the 1911 nor the GP has that feature.
As for the design of the GP: John Moses Browning designed the brilliant 1911 to government/army specs, but wanted some features omitted, which the army none the less insisted, that the 1911 have.
For the future gun, that was to become the GP, John Moses Browning used these simplified design ideas.
Both the GP and the Vis are simplified Browning concepts.
Thats what I alluded to in the comment you quoted above.
JMB envisioned the GP and made the initial footwork on it, but it is a misconception to believe, that Browning designed the GP.
The equally brilliant firearms desginer Dieudonne Saive designed the GP from ideas of Browning.
As seen here in this thread, Saive is often not credited with designing the GP35
I do not recall the model designation "Hi Efficiency" for a Browning Model.
The FN designation for the Model 1935 is GP35 - Grande Puissance (translates to high power/abbreviated to Hi Power by Anglo/Saxons).
"The Radom" by Robert J. Berger starts off discussing the "fallacy" of FN intervention.
According to Berger, both pistols followed parallel development from 1929 to 1935. Berger also writes that Piotr Wilniewczyc denied any FN design help and is said to quote: "Our neighbors could not believe that the VIS could be a product of Polish engineering and workmanship."
The VIS drawings were completed by the end of 1930. Prototypes were said to be made in 1931. The patent was applied for on January 15, 1931; and was granted on February 8, 1932. The pistol patent was aquired by the Polish army on March 16, 1933, with official adoption as the primary pistol in 1935 (thus wz.35). The first pistols started rolling off the line in late 1935.
You can see the caming of the barrel lug in the prototype pics:
I do not know much about the Browning Hi-Power development but Wiki states its design was completed in 1934. Here is a schematic I found on the Saive-Browning Model of 1928:
Which followed the Browning Patent filed in 1923:
With all the above said, we will never know as there are not enough facts to prove anything, just speculation. That said, I can also speculate that FN stole design ideas from the VIS and put them into the HP (I'm just being facetious)
Or to put forth another angle: In that point of time with the automatic pistol developments, how many HUGE variations were there really between auto handguns from that time on.
Off hand, Id state, that the next leap forward or advance in materials/ingenuity, was with the VP70, which was not a huge succes but a milestone none the less, as is the 1911.
Using articial frame parts and the potential there of, was first cemented when Gaston Glock arrived on the scene with his handgun.
The handgun manufacturing world was never quite the same and the developement of handguns took yet another direction after that.
Did not mean to offend you Scout but you did say in your post: "nice simplified Browning design." While we may never know the absolute truth, as both Stoggie and I have pointed out, there exists a belief that the Poles could not have independently designed such a fine pistol as the VIS 35. I was hoping someone else would offer a rebuttal, but after a few days it seem that the task was mine. (sigh)
Other more knowledgeable people than I (and possibly Stoggie ) have questioned this belief (Berger, Kolakis) and, at the risk of repeating myself, York suggests a parallel development. York mentions that Skrzypinski was one of the Polish engineers at FN in 1929 when the Poles supervised the development and production of the Polish variant of the Browning Automatic Rifle, the rkm wz.28 ('VIS Radom' figure 21-1 p. 21). So its possible that he learned about the development of Model 1930 Hi Efficiency then. York also states that the High Efficiency was present in Poland for consideration by the Wojsko Polskie. ('VIS Radom' p.21) Vanderlinden states that FN was marketing the Hi Efficency to various military customers between 1928 and 1929 ('FN Browning Pistols', p. 263).
The name 'Hi Efficiency' is given by York as the English version of 'Grand Rendement'. The term is also used by Anthony Vanderlinden in his book 'FN Browning Pistols' (p.261) which predates York's book.
I am aware of Dieudonne Saive, more in his capacity as the designer of the SAFN 49 and subsequently the FN FAL. And of course, I know he oversaw the Hi Power production by John Inglis of Canada during WW2. I only referred to the GP 35 as the Browning Hi Power because that is how its referred to in Canada. Just like the 1911, although a Browning design, is called the Colt 1911 not the Browning 1911. Nothing more was intended.
An Inglis manufactured Hi Power and a prewar Belgian GP35 are on my 'bucket list'.
Last edited by dastier; 11-04-2012 at 06:26 PM. Reason: Added photos of Inglis Hi Power, Colt 1911 and VIS 35
Anyways, we are digressing again!
And while I welcome debate (doesn't everyone of Polish ancestry!) and dearly desire other members input - I really didn't want to be the one to mention the aforementioned...
So 'kiddies' back to our regular scheduled programming...
Last edited by dastier; 11-04-2012 at 04:22 AM.
Karabin Samopowtarzalny (Kbsp) wz.38M
A competition for a new service rifle.
In 1934, the Institute of Materials Research announced a competition for a new rifle. Stipulated were: 7.92 mm caliber, no heavier than 4.5 kg, and a 10 round magazine with the barrel of the same length as the kbk wz.29 carbine. The competition requirements did not specify autoloading, but instead stressed 'ease of use' and 'inexpensive to produce'.
After one year, the committee selected three finalist out of ten proposals:
SKS Kbsp designed by an engineer named Stefanski (rejected at a later stage of research),
ES Kbsp PWU designed by Edward Stecki,
and 'Tournament' Kbsp designed by Józef Maroszek.
The winning proposal was a self loading rifle by Józef Maroszek, best known for the top secret Karabin przeciwpancerny wzór 35 'anti tank' rifle (kb ppanc wz.35). His proposal was a gas operated autoloader with its gas chamber and operating rod below barrel. The return spring was inside the operating rod and the barrel was fitted with a muzzle brake. It had a tilting bolt with a rear locking lug, with the loading/ejection port on top of receiver. The bolt carrier was rigidly connected to the operating rod and piston. After the last round was fired the magazine follower stopped the bolt from moving forward and the cocking handle could be twisted to hold the bolt to the rear for reloading. It used a 10 round non-detachable magazine loaded with 5 rounds clips. Magazine box dimensions were reported to closely follow those of the 20 round capacity rkm wz.28 magazines.
During development, Maroszek decided to make changes to his original proposal and by mid 1936 a prototype rifle was ready. Testing occurred in the second half of 1936 with improvements made to the stock, resulting in a new two piece design. Five more test rifles were manufactured which were tested under various conditions at Zielonka in 1937.
In 1938, after the successful completion of the tests, the Maroszek design was adopted and put into limited production as the Kbsp wz.38M (M for Maroszek). The Kbsp wz.38M was manufactured by F.B. Radom, and at Zbrojownia nr 2 (Armoury No. 2) in Praga (a burrough of Warsaw). Between March and May 1938 an estimated seventy-two rifles were manufactured. On July 13, 1938 the Deputy Minister of War, General Alexander Litwinowicz ordered fifty-five more. Total production up to July 1939 is estimated at 150 Kbsp wz.38M rifles which were then sent for line unit testing. According to discussion in the prewar Polish military press, the first to be issued with Kbsp wz.38M rifles would probably be marksmen in each squad, and as production increased, it would gradually replace all bolt action rifles.
There is no reliable data on the use of the Kbsp wz.38M by the Polish Army during the 1939 Defensive War. The only known combat usage is from the memoirs of its designer Józef Maroszek. Following the evacuation of the Institute of Armament Technology the evacuees' train was attacked by two German planes at Zdołbunowem. During this low level attack Maroszek fired upon the aircraft with a Kbsp wz.38M in his possession. As a result of this fire, the badly wounded pilot of one aircraft was forced to land near the evacuation train. The plane's gunner had been killed.
During the occupation of Poland its assumed that the invading Germans captured some Kbsp wz.38M rifles. Again according to his memoirs, Maroszek saw a group of German soldiers armed with his rifle in Warsaw, 1940. After the war apparently a few Kbsp wz.38M were found in Polish territory, but as 'unidentified', were destroyed (according to the reference the veracity of this statement is questionable). Currently, there are three known examples of the Karabin Samopowtarzalny wz.38M. Two are in a private collection in the United States (serial numbers '1017' and '1048'), the third is in the collection of the Museum of the Polish Army in Warsaw. The receiver of the example in the Polish Army Museum is stamped ZBR 2 and 1938, the year of manufacture. On the left of the receiver is the serial number '1027'.
Caliber: 7.92 mm
Cartridge: 7.92 x 57mm Mauser
Overall length: 1334 mm
Barrel length: 625 mm
Weight: 4.6 kg
Magazine Capacity: 10 rounds
References: Karabin Samopowtarzalny wz.38M, Polish Wikipedia article; http://www.weu1918-1939.pl/piechota/...abiny_38m.html
I am not certain if this is an authentic Kbsp wz.38M. It condition looks too good. However the number '48' is stamped in various places and '1048' is the serial number of a Kbsp wz.38M in an American collection. Anyone know for sure?
Photographs courtesy of the 'Forgotten Weapons' web site.
Last edited by dastier; 11-04-2012 at 05:32 PM. Reason: Tidying up grammar and sentence structure.
More photographs of the Karabin Samopowtarzalny (Kbsp) wz.38M. Labels are just arbitrary to help me organize the pics.
Receiver and bolt cover:
Piston, operating rod with spring, receiver:
Photographs courtesy of the 'Forgotten Weapons' web site.
Last edited by dastier; 11-04-2012 at 05:33 PM.