Pre War Polish Vis Shoulder Stock, 100 original Pre-War ?

[pat15567]

Wow nice pre-war Vis A.J. Which year of production and if it's possible to say - serial number (or first digits of it...). Germal look also nice but it seems to be late production ? Typical german ... ?

[dastier]

Hi again dastier,

I beg to differ! Speaking strictly from the emotional point of view it all depends on who you ask!! No doubt the Colt 1911 is in a league all its own. It was revolutionary - an important milestone in firearm design, more well known, more collected, and has an unparalleled history.

But as for me and other Vis enthusiasts, there is no contest as to which pistol has greater ‘emotional appeal’. I see 1911’s all the time, but the Vis is a rare treat. The only one’s I have ever encountered at local shows are occupation ones, and even with these it’s a thrill to find them.

Tony I think you are making my point for me. You are an enthusiast. Your Vis and any other has a greater 'emotional appeal' to you. I have a Vis 35 as well (not a prewar Polish one but hopefully that will come) and admire the design for what it was and what it represents - a fine prewar Polish military weapon. Something that I can take pride in as a son of a Polish patriot. So it has an 'emotional appeal' to me as well.

I also can admire other fine firearms like the Lahti, Luger, Colt 1911, Inglis Hi Power or... 'your gun here' but I don't have the emotional attachment to them (except perhaps the Inglis Hi Power) that a Finn, German or American might have.

But I was not speaking from strictly the emotional point of view but from the pragmatic view of manufacturing and selling a pistol for a competitive market. Perhaps 'emotional appeal' was the wrong phrase but I was talking about which firearm would have the most marketability in the largest handgun market. I think that was clear.

I understand the economics of manufacturing a pistol and selling it in a competitive market so I can see why the Łucznik Arms Factory chose to only produce a limited number of modern copies of the Vis 35. (I doubt even Norinco would attempt it, as highly praised the Vis 35 is, it doesn't have the emotional appeal of a 1911).

IMHO, to a company like Norinco - a capitalist company in a communist nation that manufactures firearms for export, the firearm with the most 'emotional appeal' or 'sex appeal' or whatever you want to call it, would probably be the 1911. The United States is a huge market of gun toting, gun shooting chauvinistic consumers that can legally own handguns and can afford to do so. Norinco wants to sell guns. For profit.

Again IMHO, more Americans would want to buy a Norinco 1911 than a Norinco Vis 35. Does Norinco make a 1911 clone - yes. Will they make Vis clone - probably not.

And I don't think I would want a Norinco Vis 35.

This is way off topic. Let's end this. Congratulations Tony, on your fine Polish Vis 35 and the P35(p) as well. Plus your holsters and cleaning rods. Where did you get the repro(?) Polish holster? I've been looking for one.

Mike

[A.J. Zawadzki]

Hi Mike, Agreed, we’re way off the shoulder stock topic - and into an area of discussion that rarely leads anywhere. Although I was compelled to reply, for purely emotional reasons . . .

. . . Where did you get the repro(?) Polish holster? I've been looking for one.

I don’t blame you for thinking it’s a repro. It is absolutely genuine, and has survived in excellent condition.

Good reproductions of the pre-war Polish holsters are sold on Allegro, and occasionally on ebay as well:

Kabura do pistoletu vis (1988370673) - Aukcje internetowe Allegro

And to stay off topic for a brief moment longer in order to answer Pat’s query . . .

. . . Which year of production and if it's possible to say - serial number (or first digits of it...). Germal look also nice but it seems to be late production ? Typical german ... ?

Hi Pat, It’s a very late 1939 ‘wrzesniowy’ production, bearing only Polish inspection marks. One of the last ones assembled, quite probably as the invasion was underway. You can see (or actually not see!) the missing D2 mark on the trigger guard, left side. Frame is numbered 47324, slide 48448.

The occupation P35 is a Type III, circa 1943/44. Quality by this stage had deteriorated significantly, but it’s still one tough pistol.

Regards,
Tony

[pat15567]

Beautifull piece ! It could be even on of the first assembled by the Germans from polish pre war parts. It rather unique to see polish made pistol with different numbers on slide and frame. Also missing D2 is not a common thing. It's is possible but mostly it is a result of later changes (war or even peace time). This could be a set mixed from few others. Do You know it's story ? Anyway - superb pistol and of course - can't be compared to 1911 Like a Chopin of pistols ...

[dastier]

That is such a beautiful pistol Tony, even if the numbers don't match. Perhaps its was assembled as Pat suggests. In any case I'm very envious. I have a P35 type II or III (can't remember which off hand and its not here at the moment) - it was the first milsurp pistol that I bought. It is a very good shooter. Better than the person doing the shooting. (me)

And to have an original holster - I've been told those sell for thousands of dollars on auction sites. I had a lead on a repro in the USA but I wasn't able to get it.

I don't read or speak Polish so I am very reluctant to buy off Allegro. Especially when making expensive purchases or if the item's authenticity is questionable (medals or badges for example).

[A.J. Zawadzki]

Thanks Pat and Mike.

Probably a topic best suited for a dedicated thread, but to finish off:

My understanding is that after the Radom factory was overrun all production ceased for the better part of six months or more. All pistols produced after operations re-started were inspected with typical Teutonic thoroughness. Surplus parts left over from pre-war production were German proofed after re-inspection. The new German designation “P.35(p)” was stamped over the Polish silde markings. “WaA77” was stamped over the eagle and also on the frame, etc. See picture below.

So while Polish markings remained on the earliest German issued pistols, all of the pistols also had German markings.

I’ve owned this pistol for about seven years, purchased from a friend who is an advanced Vis collector. He owned it for several years himself, purchasing it out of another collection. Ahead of that he trail is unknown. I have no reason to doubt that it is an honest “September pistol” based on condition, original finish, fit, etc, although there is no way to dismiss the unlikely scenario of assembly from pre-war parts at any time.

At the time I was also offered a 1938 matcher, not as well preserved, but opted for this one as I liked the September Campaign connection, and the better condition. Now in hindsight . . . hmmmm . . . Actually, I am very happy with it, but am working at getting a numbers matching one released from the same collection this one came from. Now only to find the money . . .

Cheers,
Tony

[Marcin]

I will be bit off topic as well. Here is mine Radom. It is de-act (you can see UK proof markings) because I do not have a licence It is all matching number. Frame has original finish, slide it´s been refinished. Holster is also genuine











I got two reserve polish mag´s too

[pat15567]

Wow ... that was beautiful Vis. Was. I can't understand how one can so cripple such a weapon. It's like collecting sabres with breaking them in half before hanging. Barbarism

[GasMasksUK]

Wow ... that was beautiful Vis. Was. I can't understand how one can so cripple such a weapon. It's like collecting sabres with breaking them in half before hanging. Barbarism

Unfortunately thats the way the UK is now Thats the only choice we have when it comes to pistols.

Thanks

Danny

[Marcin]

Well, choice was simple - de-act or nothing. I prefere a milion times that one than nothing