Pre War Polish Vis Shoulder Stock, 100 original Pre-War ?

**justin1939** · 12-10-2011, 12:29 AM

Hello,

Is this Polish Vis Shoulder Stock, 100 original Pre-War, please ?

I compared it to a WW1 Mauser schnellfeuer stock, it is simular but has differences, which are the screws in the hinge, the compartment for two magazines, the longer metal pistol attachment on the end.

Here are its photos.

Please reply as soon as possible.

Thank You

Justin1939

**A.J. Zawadzki** · 12-10-2011, 05:05 AM

Not a chance Justin. This is a knock off. There’s been some interesting wz.34 sabers coming out of China in the past year, and I can’t help but see similarities in this piece, with the cheesy stamps and crude hardware. The quality is just not there.

It is widely accepted that no genuine pre-WW2 Vis shoulder stock is known to exist, although I did once hear that there may be one in a museum in Poland. Pat15567 would be able to confirm this.

Regards,
Tony

**justin1939** · 12-10-2011, 06:10 AM

by A.J. Zawadzki

Not a chance Justin. This is a knock off. There’s been some interesting wz.34 sabers coming out of China in the past year, and I can’t help but see similarities in this piece, with the cheesy stamps and crude hardware. The quality is just not there.

It is widely accepted that no genuine pre-WW2 Vis shoulder stock is known to exist, although I did once hear that there may be one in a museum in Poland. Pat15567 would be able to confirm this.

Regards,
Tony

Hello, Tony.

Thank You for your reply.

Unfortunately it was too good to be true

.

Here is the description of a replica.

Radom. VIS. Board Stock. Pre-WWII Polish Military for the Polish 'Eagle'. A Walnut Flat Board Pattern Similar to the F.N. H.P. Stock but with a Thicker Neck. Exactly Duplicated from the Only Original Real Stock formerly in the Hoffmeyer Collection, Only 4 Produced.

It does not seem to match the original design.

It is simular to a photo I have seen of the original stock on the link - Wielka Encyklopedia Uzbrojenia MSWojsk 1918 - 1939.

Here are its photos.

The auction is currently ongoing on Allegro, I thought I must have it confirmed before I bid, especially as this could raise a high price, the seller is trying to claim it is an original.

My reference library is growing steadily over time, I am keen to buy a copy of the new Radom Vis book which you brought to our attention, could you tell us when you recieve your copy, if it is as good as you hoped, taking over from where the Berger book whiich I own finished (I hope there is a detailed Pre-War section).

Thank You

Justin1939

**pat15567** · 12-10-2011, 08:32 PM

Of course it is a copy as it is stated in this item description on allegro. To be honest there is no known existing original and even no knowledge if there was ever any made. It's like a legend or myth - anyone knows it but nobody ever seen one with own eyes

They only appeard in pre documents and of course the gun has a mount for this stock. From time to time some modern copies/replicas appear.

**dastier** · 12-10-2011, 10:12 PM

Pat, let me get this straight - are you saying that in fact the shoulder stock for the Vis 35 never was produced? Radom only got as far as the design stage? I know someone that has stated that he bought a Radom produced reproduction of the Vis stock but if I understand you correctly then it would really be a fantasy piece. As would any reproduction. Please clarify as I have been seeking to purchase a reproduction of the Vis 35 shoulder stock.

BTW thank you for solving the mystery of the non standard sidearms and holsters.

**A.J. Zawadzki** · 12-11-2011, 01:31 AM

Dastier, ahead of Pat’s reply, the general opinion is that no shoulder stocks were produced, despite the existence of design drawings. In 1992 the Łucznik Arms Factory in Radom produced a small quantity of Vis wz.35 pistols for the collector market. Supposedly some shoulder stocks from the original drawings were also made around this time.

I would not consider these shoulder stocks as “fantasy” pieces per se, insofar as my understanding of the application of this term. I’d consider these as reproductions seeing that they were manufactured in accordance with the existing plans and specifications.

Regards,
Tony

**dastier** · 12-11-2011, 02:58 AM

I agree Tony, that there were plans to make a shoulder stock and the designers even got as far as to create drawings and specifications. Compare this though, to the shoulder stocks for the Hi Power, Mauser C96, even Lahti. These existed in reality when they were conceived and were tested in trials and even deployed. I now know that can't be said for the Vis 35 shoulder stock. I suppose if someone wanted one then its a matter of choice. It may not be a fantasy piece but I don't see the point? If Radom has the plans then why don't they still make copies themselves? Why stop at four?

**A.J. Zawadzki** · 12-11-2011, 04:55 AM

Hi Dastier,

As far as a ‘fantasy’ designation, it's a matter of semantics. I tend to define a fantasy piece as something that never originally existed at all during the period it is purported to have been created.

At least the shoulder stock exists ‘on paper’, which is proof that this design existed at the time the pistols they were intended to accessorize were being produced.

by dastier

Compare this though, to the shoulder stocks for the Hi Power, Mauser C96, even Lahti. These existed in reality when they were conceived and were tested in trials and even deployed. I now know that can't be said for the Vis 35 shoulder stock.

But do we really know for certain that no shoulder stocks were ever produced?

Even though none have ever been found, I can’t help but expect that mock ups were produced for fit and testing as the design was refined. There may have even been a fully functional prototype. Any such examples could quite easily have fallen into German hands when they overran the factory in 1939 and since then were destroyed or otherwise lost.

by dastier

If Radom has the plans then why don't they still make copies themselves? Why stop at four?

Because the market for them doesn’t exist to the extent that it would be a profitable venture. They no longer produce the Vis pistols, so why the shoulder stocks?

I don’t know how many shoulder stocks were produced, or even if it was the Łucznik factory that produced them, but there were certainly more than four of these copies produced.

Regards,
Tony

**dastier** · 12-11-2011, 06:12 AM

You make a good point Tony. For all we know there may have been some produced and given the destruction in Poland they may have been lost. I agree its not a fantasy piece - that was a poor choice of words on my part as you point out the design existed and intentions were to produce the shoulder stock.

I must say though I was shocked when I read

by pat15567

...To be honest there is no known existing original and even no knowledge if there was ever any made. It's like a legend or myth - anyone knows it but nobody ever seen one with own eyes

They only appeard in pre documents and of course the gun has a mount for this stock. From time to time some modern copies/replicas appear.

I understand the economics of manufacturing a pistol and selling it in a competitive market so I can see why the Łucznik Arms Factory chose to only produce a limited number of modern copies of the Vis 35. (I doubt even Norinco would attempt it, as highly praised the Vis 35 is, it doesn't have the emotional appeal of a 1911). However since Łucznik Arms Factory has the designs could not some enterprising Pole (or even Norinco - just kidding) make an accurate, quality licensed copy of the shoulder stock? Even if it was to order and a custom build it would be better than getting ripped off on auction sites.

BTW the quantity of four shoulder stocks that I made in my previous post was a typo. I meant to say forty not four. I was informed that Łucznik Arms Factory made 100 modern copies of the Vis 35 and 40 shoulder stocks - I don't know if this is even correct. Apologies for my error.

by A.J. Zawadzki

...I don’t know how many shoulder stocks were produced, or even if it was the Łucznik factory that produced them, but there were certainly more than four of these copies produced.

**A.J. Zawadzki** · 12-11-2011, 07:53 AM

Hi again dastier,

by dastier

. . . as highly praised the Vis 35 is, it doesn't have the emotional appeal of a 1911 . . .

I beg to differ! Speaking strictly from the emotional point of view it all depends on who you ask!! No doubt the Colt 1911 is in a league all its own. It was revolutionary - an important milestone in firearm design, more well known, more collected, and has an unparalleled history.

But as for me and other Vis enthusiasts, there is no contest as to which pistol has greater ‘emotional appeal’. I see 1911’s all the time, but the Vis is a rare treat. The only one’s I have ever encountered at local shows are occupation ones, and even with these it’s a thrill to find them.

The precision of the fit and quality of the finish of the pre-war made Vis pistols is a wonder to behold. The gun has a superb balance, fires smooth as butter and is accurate. (Yes, I have taken mine to the range along with my competition grade Para-Ordnance pistol). The Vis wz.35 is legendary even in 2011!

Cheers,
Tony