Auction items .. Good, Bad or Indifferent ?

[A.J. Zawadzki]

James, Michal is right about the metal 2WDP insignias. It’s not easy to authenticate these from photos alone. The one you’ve pictured does not look convincing. To my eyes it appears rather fresh looking, and the cutting and engraving work almost like that produced by a modern tool. Just my gut feel on it. Also, most of the period ones I’ve seen were handmade out of aluminum, and considerable cruder in their overall execution.

As far as the ebay seller’s items, there a mix of good and bad there. On quick glance I don’t like the para collar badges, the shoulder titles or the Carpathian palemki.

Gary – it looks like someone swooped in via the back door to scoop that 318th Squadron jacket : “ended by the seller because the item is no longer available.”

Cheers,
Tony

[Gary J]

Tony,
Well, I'm not surprised the PAF group lasted such a short while.
The "back door offer" must have been good for the vendor to pull the plug that quickly !.

Gary J.

[jamest8]

Thanks Tony

as ever there are more items for sale - these I think are OK Are they?
borders007 | eBay

As ever many many thanks for your help

James

James, Michal is right about the metal 2WDP insignias. It’s not easy to authenticate these from photos alone. The one you’ve pictured does not look convincing. To my eyes it appears rather fresh looking, and the cutting and engraving work almost like that produced by a modern tool. Just my gut feel on it. Also, most of the period ones I’ve seen were handmade out of aluminum, and considerable cruder in their overall execution.

As far as the ebay seller’s items, there a mix of good and bad there. On quick glance I don’t like the para collar badges, the shoulder titles or the Carpathian palemki.

Gary – it looks like someone swooped in via the back door to scoop that 318th Squadron jacket : “ended by the seller because the item is no longer available.”

Cheers,
Tony

[A.J. Zawadzki]

Hi James,

The 8th Rifles Battalion and 7th Lancers badges are both good. The 14th Signals is a fake. Watch for the price on that 8th Bat climb. It’s quite rare, and this one’s in super shape.

Cheers,
Tony

[jamest8]

Thanks Tony
Your time in answering these questions is greatly appreciated.
enjoy the rest of your w/e
James

[jdr]

As far as the ebay seller’s items, there a mix of good and bad there. On quick glance I don’t like the para collar badges, the shoulder titles or the Carpathian palemki.

I think you may need new spectacles if you think the shoulder titles are bad. I can't speak for the other items as they are not my area of expertise, but if you are wrong on this it wouldn't surprise me if you were wrong about the other two items. I am selling these items on behalf of someone else who prides themselves on sourcing original pieces.

[jdr]

Quite a few people watching considering you think they are bad

[A.J. Zawadzki]

Hi jdr,

I was not trying to suggest dishonesty on the part of the seller of these items. Nobody knows everything about everything in this hobby, and with the huge quantity of reproduction pieces floating about the market it not unusual to find some lurking in otherwise impeccable collections. My collection is no exception as I just recently determined that an item long suspected good is in fact now doubtful based on new information. Live and learn. Such is the nature of this hobby.

Anyway, over to the titles. Perhaps I should’ve explained myself better, although the comment was necessarily brief as it was posting during a momentary break at work. Again, on quick glance the fresh shoulder titles looked suspect because of the stitching remnants, as though removed from a uniform. Yet the titles have crisply cut looking edges coupled with a complete absence of any stitch impressions. And again, the new bright and new overall.

Adding bits of thread is a known trick of fraudsters peddling bogus cloth insignia, so thus raises legitimate questions. Were these titles sewn on and immediately taken off? Perhaps removed from a militaria display? Or are they intentionally there to deceive? These are the little but important things that should cause any prospective purchaser to pause and question.

This particular title variant (using a thick scarlet red felt backing) has been copied. Genuine examples are not infrequently seen on the market in unissued condition. Somewhere I was once told that this type were sold to veterans into the 1970’s by POSK in the UK, which may help explain why unissued examples pop up every so often.

The most common felt backing for the wartime produced titles is a finer (thinner) grade of felt, and of a slightly more subdued hue of red. But this heavier grade felt was also used, although less frequently in my experience. I associate this text font with 1st Corps uniforms, based on owning, handling and studying original badged uniforms. The most common lettering height with period applied titles is 3/8 inch high. The text height with these is about 5/16 inch high, and less common. Copies have the smaller size lettering.

Those are my thoughts. I have yet to find any reference literature on the bewildering quantity of variants that these were produced in. Some of the pairs I've acquired are pictured below (I also have a small stack of singles of other types), and this “POSK” type is included in my collection. Hope they’re genuine! (purchased some years ago from an eminently knowledgeable and well respected member here) Sorry if the baby get’s tossed out with the bath water because of some bits of thread, but that’s what can happen when good pieces are messed with. Caveat emptor.

Regards,
Tony

PS I’ll comment on the other two badges shortly.

[A.J. Zawadzki]

Quite a few people watching considering you think they are bad

Nice to know that there’s lots of observers. Of course, that doesn’t mean an item is genuine. And knowing that so many are watching doesn’t ease my concerns in the least.

Pictured below is a fake to the left of one of the pair listed for sale. The surface imperfections such as those circled (and what looks like some pitting in the areas of the canopy) are a worrying sign, and a known characteristic of copies.

Also, copies lack the detail of genuine examples, especially in the suspension lines. (see comparison of a fake and genuine set below). Some of the details with the ones for sale seem soft, although that could be partly attributed to wear, such as from cleaning. So they may still be genuine, although you now know why I would exercise caution. Gary J. and GFC are experts on these, and I would bow to their opinions.

Regards,
T.

[A.J. Zawadzki]

Lastly, the Carpathian Lancer collar badges.

See below for a genuine set (on the right of both pictures) next to the ones for sale. Compare sharpness of details on the palm fronds and trunk. Note the points of the crescent. Compare the smooth arc of the taller palm’s trunk.

Original badges used the British lug fastening, and were die stamped. The reverse of original badges was flat with sharply defined edges as would be expected in a die stamped badge. Compare the reverse of both badges.

Although I cannot back this up with any literature, I do not believe that period badges were made using this pin back type fastening. Curiously, I have only ever seen these pin back versions for the left side collar, and often sold in pairs this way. A proper set consists of mirror images with the palm tree leaning in opposite directions.

My observations for what they’re worth. Prospective buyers will need to arrive at their own conclusions.

Regards,
Tony