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Cross of Valour (Krzyz Walecznych) - Exile Types

Article about: Dear friends, I would like to propose posting a new thread with regards to the Krzyz Waleczny or Cross of Valour. i love this medal it is a personal favourite of mine. What i hope hope to ac

  1. #171

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    but I see AL ...

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  2. #172
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    Quote by Igor Ostapenko View Post
    I'm not see dot
    Krzyz Walecznych by Krogulec, page 190, type 19.

  3. #173

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    Quote by kosa View Post
    Perhaps to ebay experts but according to literature a cross made in Great Britain around 1941. A small dot on the reverse makes a huge difference.
    Hi Kosa, yes, on quick glance the cross in the auction pictures does appear very much like a British made early WW2 type. But Igor is correct that it is actually a pre-WW2 cross made by Arthus Betrand of Paris. See post #125 here:

    Cross of Valour (Krzyż Walecznych) – Pre-WW2 Types

    So the auction price was not bad at all for a scarcely seen cross !

    Cheers,
    Tony
    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

  4. #174

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    Quote by kosa View Post
    Krzyz Walecznych by Krogulec, page 190, type 19.
    I don't have my Krogulec book with me at the moment, but from memory I think it's a Type 11.
    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

  5. #175
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    Quote by A.J. Zawadzki View Post
    I don't have my Krogulec book with me at the moment, but from memory I think it's a Type 11.
    You are correct. A Type 11 is Bertrand but I can't see the French craftsmanship. Many Exile Crosses of type 19 look better than this one and have very similar fonts to type 11 on the reverse. Perhaps early poduction. According to Krogulec there were a few series of the type 19. Some of them don't have any dots. Anyway, GBP175 for a cross without a ribbon is too much.

    Cheers

  6. #176

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    I agree, the pictures do show a well-worn cross, with possible bumped corners. This along with poor lighting has to a degree the effect of mask the quality. But there’s no mistaking that it’s a Bertrand “11”.

    And I don’t blame you at all for thinking this was a “19” as on my first glance I had done the same thing. The exile pattern ribbon threw me off. And both of these types have the unique downward sloping cross stroke in the L. But the A serif stretching below the L gives it away.

    As for price, ribbon or not I don’t think the winner overpaid too much if at all. The “11” is seldom seen. I’m quite sure I paid more for mine, which I had been hunting for a lengthy spell. This is the cross posted in the pre-WW2 Cross of Valour thread cited earlier. Maybe I overpaid??

    Cheers,
    Tony
    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

  7. #177
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    Quote by A.J. Zawadzki View Post
    But the A serif stretching below the L gives it away.

    As for price, ribbon or not I don’t think the winner overpaid too much if at all. The “11” is seldom seen. I’m quite sure I paid more for mine, which I had been hunting for a lengthy spell. This is the cross posted in the pre-WW2 Cross of Valour thread cited earlier. Maybe I overpaid??

    Cheers,
    Tony
    Indeed, the A serif indicates the 11 cross but again in early type 19 crosses the serif streches a bit below the L too, which is confusing. Perhaps they used the French dies in 1940. I have no idea. Ok, let's believe it is the 11
    As for price, here's my recent acquisition. A humble type 22a with a bar and an award certificate. Paid approximately GBP190 for both. Considering the condition of both I don't think I overpaid

    Cheers


  8. #178

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    Quote by kosa View Post
    . . . in early type 19 crosses the serif streches a bit below the L too, which is confusing. Perhaps they used the French dies in 1940. I have no idea. Ok, let's believe it is the 11
    Haha – OK, let’s have faith . I was unaware that there was a differentiation between early and later “19” types, but if so this does open up an interesting possibility that it is based on the Bertrand “11”. I’ll need examine both crosses when back at home to gauge this possibility.

    Congrats on your “22a”. Nice looking set. Cross has what appears to be its correct issue ribbon, and the award bar is always a bonus. Does the award certificate note the second award?

    And speaking of the ‘legitymacji’, the various and interesting types of award documents would be a worthy topic of discussion on this thread. We could start things off with your “Bohusz-Szyszko type”, a name I gave it as it seems to have been introduced after General Bohusz-Szyszko took over command of the 2nd Corps in April 1945. Can you post better pictures for us?

    Regards,
    Tony
    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

  9. #179
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    Quote by A.J. Zawadzki View Post
    Haha – OK, let’s have faith . I was unaware that there was a differentiation between early and later “19” types, but if so this does open up an interesting possibility that it is based on the Bertrand “11”. I’ll need examine both crosses when back at home to gauge this possibility.
    There are. A fellow collector has opened my eyes. According to Korgulec there were early and later types of the 19 type cross. I do not have the 11 type in my collection and prefer to stay away from it

    Quote by A.J. Zawadzki View Post
    Congrats on your “22a”. Nice looking set. Cross has what appears to be its correct issue ribbon, and the award bar is always a bonus. Does the award certificate note the second award?
    Thanks a lot! The ribbon is a correct Middle Eastern one. I think the real bonus is the award certificate.
    The award certificate notes the second award. It says z 1ym okuciem. What I learnt from the soldier's relatiives he was awarded the Cross of Valour for Monte Cassino and for Bologna. The award certificate in the picture is from late 1947.

    Now I need the "22" with an award document to impress my fellow collectors on the block I've been looking for it for a very long time. I mean I got divorced twice in the meantime. Just kidding.

    Quote by A.J. Zawadzki View Post

    And speaking of the ‘legitymacji’, the various and interesting types of award documents would be a worthy topic of discussion on this thread. We could start things off with your “Bohusz-Szyszko type”, a name I gave it as it seems to have been introduced after General Bohusz-Szyszko took over command of the 2nd Corps in April 1945. Can you post better pictures for us?
    Tony don't take me wrong. I've got no problem sharing information and knowledge but I'd prefer not to make my collection public. I am going to follow this thread and will collaborate on the award documents topic if time permits.

    Cheers

  10. #180

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    Quote by kosa View Post
    There are. A fellow collector has opened my eyes. According to Korgulec there were early and later types of the 19 type cross. I do not have the 11 type in my collection and prefer to stay away from it
    Hi Kosa, thanks. I’ll need to re-read Krogulec to check his comments on these two types. It’s interesting that he did not assign a sub-category – “19a” – if there is a legitimate other type as Krogulec did not hesitate in sub-classifying variations within a type.

    Quote by kosa View Post
    The award certificate notes the second award. It says z 1ym okuciem. What I learnt from the soldier's relatiives he was awarded the Cross of Valour for Monte Cassino and for Bologna. The award certificate in the picture is from late 1947.
    Good stuff. It’s wonderful to have this information from the family. You are fortunate. So much of this info gets lost as these items leave the possession of the original owner and their families.

    Quote by kosa View Post
    Now I need the "22" with an award document to impress my fellow collectors on the block
    We will definitely be impressed! The “22” is a difficult one to find. Unfortunately mine has no award document to accompany it.

    Quote by kosa View Post
    I've got no problem sharing information and knowledge but I'd prefer not to make my collection public.
    No problem at all. That is entirely your prerogative as the owner of private property, which I respect. Please do continue, however, to share your knowledge with us. Oh, and if you could make only one small exception and share a picture of the “22” with original award document when you finally acquire it, OK?

    Quote by kosa View Post
    I mean I got divorced twice in the meantime. Just kidding.
    What? Spending money on militaria causes problems with your wife? Never heard of such a thing . . .

    Cheers,
    Tony
    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

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