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Great-Grandfather was in the Polish army.

Article about: Howdy folks, I was wondering if you might be able to help me in my research on my Great-grandfather, Jozef Szybkowski, a soldier in the Polish army at the outbreak of war. I'll start from th

  1. #11

    Default Re: Great-Grandfather was in the Polish army.

    "P" patch was attributed to civilians only, working at Reich's territory.

  2. #12

    Default Re: Great-Grandfather was in the Polish army.

    Quote by Tomasz70 View Post
    "P" patch was attributed to civilians only, working at Reich's territory.
    Hi Tomasz70

    You are correct, but...

    ... once the Polish PoWs were "released" by the Germans' they became "civilians" and therefore not protected under the Geneva Convention from being employed as forced labourers in the Reich territories. Having thus been classified as Polish "civilians" in the Reich then the former PoWs were required to wear the "P" badge ascribed to all Poles "working & living" in the Reich territories...even if they were still wearing their Polish army uniforms.

    Below are a small selection of Polish PoW "civilians" in uniform from my Polish forced labour collection (see my thread... http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/polish...ection-14135/:)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Above: Men in civilian dress and army uniforms wearing "P" patch for Poles.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Above: Man in Polish army uniform wearing "P" patch for Poles.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Polish_letter_P1.jpg 
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    Above: Men in army uniforms wearing "P" patch for Poles.

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	521869

    Above: A large group of PoWs in Polish army uniforms wearing "P" patch for Poles.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Above: Arbeitsbuch with man in army greatcoat(?) wearing "P" patch for Poles.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Above: Man in army uniform wearing "P" patch for Poles.


    As a general note, Soviet PoWs were immediately slated for forced labour because the Soviets were not signatories to the Geneva Convention and as a consequence the German's treated them (as civilians) with appalling disregard to any basic prisoner/human rights. Many tens of thousands of Soviet PoWs died from starvation and severe maltreatment in the first months of their captivity. The Soviets' were later to mete out their revenge in a similar manner on German PoWs after the defeats in the East by the Red Army.

    Apologies for the slight side-tracking of the thread and further discussion on Polish forced labour should be taken up on relevant thread of course
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  3. #13

    Default Re: Great-Grandfather was in the Polish army.

    Quote by 4thskorpion View Post
    Hi Tomasz70

    You are correct, but...

    ... once the Polish PoWs were "released" by the Germans' they became "civilians" and therefore not protected under the Geneva Convention from being employed as forced labourers in the Reich territories. Having thus been classified as Polish "civilians" in the Reich then the former PoWs were required to wear the "P" badge ascribed to all Poles "working & living" in the Reich territories...even if they were still wearing their Polish army uniforms.

    Below are a small selection of Polish PoW "civilians" in uniform from my Polish forced labour collection (see my thread... http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/polish...ection-14135/:)

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	letter-P019.jpg 
Views:	258 
Size:	223.4 KB 
ID:	521866

    Above: Men in civilian dress and army uniforms wearing "P" patch for Poles.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Polish_serviceman004.jpg 
Views:	728 
Size:	192.4 KB 
ID:	521867

    Above: Man in Polish army uniform wearing "P" patch for Poles.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Polish_letter_P1.jpg 
Views:	329 
Size:	222.0 KB 
ID:	521868

    Above: Men in army uniforms wearing "P" patch for Poles.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	PoW_letter_P013.jpg 
Views:	428 
Size:	122.7 KB 
ID:	521869

    Above: A large group of PoWs in Polish army uniforms wearing "P" patch for Poles.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	63PP_1.jpg 
Views:	149 
Size:	65.4 KB 
ID:	521870

    Above: Arbeitsbuch with man in army greatcoat(?) wearing "P" patch for Poles.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	PoW_letterP.jpg 
Views:	269 
Size:	51.6 KB 
ID:	521871

    Above: Man in army uniform wearing "P" patch for Poles.


    As a general note, Soviet PoWs were immediately slated for forced labour because the Soviets were not signatories to the Geneva Convention and as a consequence the German's treated them (as civilians) with appalling disregard to any basic prisoner/human rights. Many tens of thousands of Soviet PoWs died from starvation and severe maltreatment in the first months of their captivity. The Soviets' were later to mete out their revenge in a similar manner on German PoWs after the defeats in the East by the Red Army.

    Apologies for the slight side-tracking of the thread and further discussion on Polish forced labour should be taken up on relevant thread of course
    Great information, I am unsure if this may have had anything to do with it, but perhaps he was not made to wear the patch since he might have had German ancestry? His mother's name was Marianna Bich, which may be a German surname, but not much is known of that side of the family.

  4. #14

    Default Re: Great-Grandfather was in the Polish army.

    Quote by TheSovietSamurai View Post
    Great information, I am unsure if this may have had anything to do with it, but perhaps he was not made to wear the patch since he might have had German ancestry? His mother's name was Marianna Bich, which may be a German surname, but not much is known of that side of the family.
    I would say not and that he would have had to wear a "P" patch unless was registered as Volksdeutsche?

    I found the explanation of the acronym "CMLO" which is attributed to your GGF's employment after registering as a DP, it is:

    Civil Mixed Labour Organisation (CMLO)
    Control Commission for Germany and Austria (British Element) 1947-1949.

    In the National Archives at Kew, London there are a number of CMLO related files, one that may be of particular interest is:

    CMLO/CMWS: recruitment of DP volunteers and conditions of service
    Date: 1948
    Reference: FO 1052/169
    Former references in its original department: PWDP/2008

    Just type "CMLO" into the search box to find the other related document references.


    The photo of your GGF in British uniform could very well be because it was issued to him for service in the post-war CMLO and that is why there is no wartime "P" patch on his jacket

    Update =========

    Another series of files at the National Archives, Kew that might be of help:

    Reference: FO 1052
    Title: Control Office for Germany and Austria and Foreign Office: Control Commission for Germany (British Element), Prisoners of War/Displaced Persons Division: Registered Files (PWDP and other Series)
    Description: This series contains records of the Prisoners of War/Displaced Persons Division.
    Date: 1944-1952
    Held by: The National Archives, Kew
    Last edited by StefanM; 06-05-2013 at 02:29 PM.
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  5. #15

    Default Re: Great-Grandfather was in the Polish army.

    The 4thskorpion wrote: “The photo of your GGF in British uniform could very well be because it was issued to him for service in the post-war CMLO and that is why there is no wartime "P" patch on his jacket”.

    I agree with 4thskorpion. Post war engagement of Polish ex-POW and DP's (Displaced Persons) for service within allied occupying forces was not exceptional. And many of DP’s were issued with elements of allied uniforms by US or British forces (especially in case of liberated prisoners of Concentration Camps).

  6. #16

    Default

    When I thought all had been lost, I found some more photographs!
    These were supposedly taken prior or during the war.
    Is he wearing the Polish uniform in these pics?

    He's on the left in this pic:


    He's standing in the center of the truck:


    In the DP camp with one of his children:

  7. #17

    Default

    Postwar photos. General lack of Polish insignia could suggest CMLO uniform. Do you know which DP camps you ggf was living at?
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  8. #18

    Default

    Quote by 4thskorpion View Post
    Postwar photos. General lack of Polish insignia could suggest CMLO uniform. Do you know which DP camps you ggf was living at?
    Thanks for your previous info on CMLO 4thskorpion, I hadn't seen it, sent an inquiry to the archives today, hopefully they have some records.
    His available records state that he stayed at a DP camp Wentorf, Flensburg from 8/5/1945 - 14/6/1947 (It states that he was with CMLO from this date to the last) then at Hamburg Blankenesse from that date to 20/3/1948.
    A small document details:

    " 3.JAN.1949
    901/REG/Wed/9
    903 IRO Area Office, Hamburg
    SZYBKOWSKI, Jozef, Pol, 9/10/14, PWX/DP Card No 042655 employed with 250 BSE Blankenesse"

    By 4/3/1950 he was in a camp called Fallingbostle, here is the record:


    Some more documents:



  9. #19

    Default

    The photo of you ggf and daughter looks like it was taken in front one of the Wentorf barrack blocks, see attached:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Weblink: Wentorf DP camp

    This photo from the Wentorf website above shows Poles in British uniforms similar to that your Ggf is wearing:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by StefanM; 09-02-2013 at 08:03 AM.
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  10. #20

    Default

    Taken the liberty of moving the thread into correct forum as most of the posts relate to 1939 and post-WWII.
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

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