PODHALE Rifle Brigade 1939 France

[winnie]

Can someone please tell me what 4pp stands for in the scan below?
What was he doing and where was he in the first few months? Enlisted 27 Nov 1939 Coetquidan with Polish forces under French command, incorporated into 4.p.p. Brygada Strzelcow Podhalanskich (4pp Podhale Rifle Brigade). What is 4pp?

Believe the infantry sub units were divided into 4 rifle battalions.
Were they part of the 2nd Foot Rifles Division / 2nd Rifle Infantry Division (2DSP)? Or might 4pp be an error and mean the 4th Infantry Battalion or Regiment? I am obviously confused.

Could these two photos be 1939?
(need to click photo to see A and B side by side)
Photo A – have been searching for this French chateau for years…! Apparently in late Nov 1939 Coetquidan couldn’t accommodate the many volunteers arriving, so soldiers were distributed around the regions of Guer, Plélan le grand, Mauron, Beignon (artillerie légère), Augan (artillerie lourde), Comblessac..
Photo B - the Polish Army Museum noticed he has no cap badge, and suggested that the long bayonet is typical of the Lebel rifle.

[The following I know about. 10 April 1940 sworn into 1st Independent Highland Rifle Brigade (Samodzielna Brygada Strzelcow Podhalanskich) in Malestroit…. and later that month sailed for Narvik]

I'm just focussing on first few months from 1939
Thanks...

[Krakow1]

4PP stands for 4 Pulk Piechoty (4 Rifle Regiment). I think that the 4 PP designation is for his 1939 September Polish Campaign, because 16 September 1939 was a last day of existence of the 4 PP, Strzelcow Podhalanskich.
On 22 September 1939 german and ukrainian nationalist burned alive about 100 Polish prisoners from 4PP in a Barn in village Urycz, near Lwow.

[winnie]

Thanks Krakow1. Burned alive 22 Sept 1939, how horrible.
I have searched and found information on that now.

My father enlisted 27 November 1939... so was in the 'new' 4pp?

From your lead I have now found the museum at militariacieszyn.pl/
Many thanks.

[winnie]

Thanks Krakow1. Burned alive 22 Sept 1939, how horrible.
I have searched and found information on that now.
My father enlisted 27 Nov 1939... so was in the 'new' 4pp?
From your lead I have now found the museum at militariacieszyn.pl/
Many thanks.

[cichociemny]

Hi

In the document you poster under service in Poland there is nothing, which means he enlisted in France, in this case the 4 PP would stand for the 4th Regiment in the 2nd Dywizja Strzelcow Pieszych not the 4PP pre-war regiment. Now when the Brygada Strzelcow Podhalanskich was being formed the 1st and 2nd Divisions were ordered to send some of their best men to form the nucleus of the BSP. Hence this soldier was a 4th Regt member then posted to the BSP and service at Narvik.

From the photograph you posted it is a photo taken whilst still with the 4th Regiment I would say around Dec 1939-Jan1940. The BSP wore French Fortress Infantry Berets whilst the 2nd Division wore side caps until they also recieved berets in 1940.

The tunic is interesting, it is not a standard issue French tunic, might be tailor made. The Polish Army in France faced big supply problems, originally the troops wore French WW1 horizon blue uniforms, however many soldiers especially officers, NCO's and officer cadets had tailor made uniforms made up and you see a few patterns of uniforms being worn.

Oh the militaria cieszyn website is about the 4 Pulk Strzelcow Podhalanskich, another unit which was a mountain infantry regiment, there were 2 infantry units in the pre-war Polish army numbered 4, the 4 Pulk Piechoty and 4 Pulk Strzelcow Podhalanskich.

[winnie]

Many thanks ‘cichociemny’. Yes he definitely enlisted at Coetquidan (stated within records received from the Polish section of MOD). And thanks for suggesting date of photos. I didn’t realize that some BSP tunics were tailor made. Your clarification is really helpful…. So I need to be very specific when searching. I will try “4 pulk Brygada Strzelcow Podhalanskich”; “4BSP” ; “4 pulk BSP” or “4th regiment, Podhale Rifle Brigade”. 1939. I will search independently, but if you know of any museum, website or book about the 4th Regiment BSP 1939, that would be greatly appreciated. I have a few more undated photos if you are interested. Best wishes...

[cichociemny]

Hi winnie. Just a quick reply from my phone. Dont bother searching anything with the 4pp because this was a interim regiment after the Polish army was forming in France after a few weeks/months the Polish army renamed their regiments i am not sure what the 4pp became generally any good info on specific soldiers is hard to come by because of the retreats and loss of records. The Brygada Strzelcow Podhalanskich did not have regiments in it but batalions so when searching on the net just type in brygada strzelcow podhalanskich or narvik. I happen to know a bit about the BSP and the only books on the subject of them at Narvik are in polish. If you are researching this soldier just focus on him and the BSP and Narvik the 4pp is insignificant as he would have only been with this unit for his basic training.

[Thomas the Tank Engine]

Hi Guys,
Winnie, I've got the feeling you misunderstood Cichociemny's post. Searching for <<“4 pulk Brygada Strzelcow Podhalanskich”; “4BSP” ; “4 pulk BSP” or “4th regiment, Podhale Rifle Brigade”?>> would be rather pointless. The 4th Inf Rgt which stationed initally at Camp Coetquidan was never a part of the Samodzielna Brygada Strzelców Podhalańskich (however about 500 best-trained soldiers of the 2nd LID were transferred to the Bde). It was an independent bde consisting of two demi-brigades comprising two bns each, according to the French war establishments. The 4th Rgt (established on 17 November 1939) was one of the units of the 2nd Light Infantry Division, on 30 May 1940 renamed as "4 Warszawski Pułk Strzelców Pieszych". Because the Rgt was the best organized unit of the Divison, the Divisional NCO school was subordinated to the unit.
The only printed source specifically on the 4th Rgt is a booklet titled "4 Warszawski Pułk Strzelców Pieszych" by Józef Smolinski, published in Pruszków in 1994. It contains the names of places were the Rgt's bns were stationed at the turn of 1939 and 1940. I've already googled these names combined with "chateau" but unfortunately none of chateaux looked like the one on the pic. I've looked through my books on the Polish Army in France but there's nothing interesting on the particular group of soldiers transferred from the 4th Rgt to the "Samodzielna Brygada Strzelców Podhalańskich".

Regards,
Tom

[winnie]

Posting more photos. I thought they were taken in Scotland after Narvik (photo # 21 has "12 May 1941 Glasgow" written on the back but maybe his recall was not accurate). Maybe some of these photos are Brygada Strzelcow Podhalanskich in France before Narvik? I have numbered them all for reference but do not know their chronological order. I would greatly value your opinion…

[winnie]

I am now infomed that these were taken in Scotland, after Narvik.