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Polish Carpathian lancers Battledress

Article about: I would like to know if any members of the forum would be able to post any pictures of a genuine Carpathian Lancers battle dress?

  1. #1

    Default Polish Carpathian lancers Battledress

    I would like to know if any members of the forum would be able to post any pictures of a genuine Carpathian Lancers battle dress?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Polish Carpathian lancers Battledress

    Hi Starszy,

    First up is an excerpt from the Osprey Men At Arms Series “British Battledress 1937-61” that pictures an artist’s rendition of a lieutenant in 'best' BD, along with some good information.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

  3. #3

    Default Re: Polish Carpathian lancers Battledress

    And to finish off are photos of a Carpathian Lancers BD that sold in an internet auction a couple of years ago. I saved the images despite not being particularly convinced that this is a genuine period tunic. It will however serve as a reasonably accurate representative example of a 1937 Pattern corporals BD tunic.

    Regards,
    Tony
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    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

  4. #4

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    Does anyone know who the veteran was that wore this Carpathian Lancers Battledress? I don't think this is a mock-up as was suggested. I have seen and have a variety of WW2 era BD'S in my collection and they're all different. What makes me question there authenticity is when they lack service bars.

  5. #5

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    Hi and welcome to the forum.

    The Carpathian Battledress in those photos is a made up item in my opinion.
    Firstly it looks like a walking out type jacket with ribbons and badges, then why isnt the collar converted Polish style?
    The unit was part of 2nd Corps and the Poland titles seen here are ones worn in 1st Corps units.
    Then a few small issues, where is the star on the wound badge? Why so many unit badge but little ribbons.

    It just does not smell right if you have been collecting for years and have seen 10 fakes for 1 good Polish jacket.

    Nick

  6. #6

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    I see where you're coming from but I've seen many period photographs of Polish soldiers wearing regular style BD'S as walking out uniforms. I've also seen photos of Polish soldiers wearing BD'S with no unit collar pennons on them either. I have one in my collection that is the same way. As for the shoulder titles I agree that they look different but the canvas type were issued towards the later part of the war. I also know that the Poles used a variety of uniforms that were made available to them. Supply issues in Italy warranted that. Heck, even Canadian troops had to rely on British made kit in Italy because of supply issues. As for the wound and injuries service bar I agree with you to a degree but suspect the wound wasn't battle related. I chatted with the guy who owned it originally and he said that he had it for years and that he purchased it from someone else. I honestly would like to know who wore this BD originally. Its not in prestine condition either so it leaves me to wonder what its story is. Aside from the Wound Bar the other two Service bars are the Army Service 1939-45 and the Italian Service bar. I've looked at it carefully and suspect that whoever wore this may have seen little action in the field.

  7. #7

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    Hello Polak35, and welcome to the forum. What matters is if you're happy with it. But should you ever decide to sell it you'll face more of the same questions such as those Nick raised.

    This set of items sold on allegro for 1125zl (~290USD), a rather low price. A hint can be gleaned from that as to what the collecting market felt about it. Attached below is the original item description.

    In this area of collecting one needs to exercise extreme caution as the market is flooded with badged up fakes. Unfortunately, the situation is so bad that each uniform needs to be approached as being guilty until proven innocent. Could it be real? Yes, of course. But my opinion on this uniform has not changed.

    Regards,
    Tony
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

  8. #8

    Default

    If it sold for 1,125 zl on allegro then I wouldn't be so skeptical about it. The exchange rate from Polish to US or even Canadian currency is very low. Plus, Allegro is Poland's version of ebay. I too have bought items on Allegro and to say that the collection may be a mock up is a bit far fetched. Only way to find out is to get a detailed Unit list from the Sikorski Institute and look at the service records of every man that served with that Regt.

  9. #9

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    Quote by Polak35 View Post
    . . . I too have bought items on Allegro and to say that the collection may be a mock up is a bit far fetched. . . . .
    Let’s just agree to disagree on this BD. Two experienced collectors with years in the hobby have posted comments that you are free to disagree with. Again, the most important thing is that you’re happy with your purchase.

    Quote by Polak35 View Post
    . . . Only way to find out is to get a detailed Unit list from the Sikorski Institute and look at the service records of every man that served with that Regt.
    Perhaps you can explain to us how this will prove anything about the authenticity of the uniform grouping. What you need is provenance. Photographs, documents, and any other items that directly connect this uniform to the soldier. Otherwise it is destined to remain anonymous, and subject to the scrutiny of collectors who are perpetually navigating a sea of fakes. Such is the state of the hobby, especially with uniform items.

    It’s great to have you here with us, and I wish that your welcome here was, well, more welcoming. No collector enjoys having their items questioned, but our objective here is to authenticate pieces as best as possible. This necessarily means that the news is not always going to be pleasant.

    Cheers,
    Tony
    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

  10. #10

    Default

    Don't get me wrong here I totally agree that the provenance must be established. Hence, service records of vets from the Carpathian Lancers from the Sikorski Institute would go a long way. Plus, finding out who the original seller was on Allegro would help too. I too have seen Polish BD'S floating around and some of which I have found to be very questionable. I also have many Polish BD'S in my personal collection by which to compare and contrast with and reference material by which to refer to but what gets me most is that the Poles used a variety of a BD'S and not everyone looked the same. Some more different than others. I find studying Polish BD'S to be a real head scratcher sometimes. I am sure you can concur with that. Cheers.

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