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Polish Hat Eagles

Article about: In my opinion this particular cap eagle was made by G.J. Garratt Toronto. Very unique, hard to find.

  1. #2141

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    Hi Jaros, first off, welcome to the forum! I am most impressed by your diligent research and dogged perseverance. And I am happy that you have found some peace of mind with this eagle.

    Ego confido ventrem.

    Regards,
    Tony
    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

  2. #2142

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    Hi Jaros, welcome to the Forum.

    I am very happy that the Forum posts about that eagle worked as intended : to spur the buyer to do more research .... that is what is all about.
    On the flip side : if and there is a reason I say it : if this eagle was fake would you be happy we told You so ?
    I was saved by a Forum like this about 20 years ago from buying a 1600 pound fake Polish Para badge....
    With any polish items now, one has to be very careful. They are getting scarcer and scarcer and more collectors...

    Spiritus flat ubi vult.

    Its 1977, Krakow , Poland. Late August. I graduated 8th grade, I am going to a Lyceum. AS a student I have to sew a shield on my arm with a number X. My mother takes me to get the shield. Ulica Florianska, right at the end, before the Brama, inside the big house there is a sewing shop. Has been there from way before War. Their samples are displayed : beautiful bullion shields, military patches, etc. The owner is a old Lady, probably in her 70's. They did nothing else but bullion.
    I get a beautiful bullion patch with X on it.
    This lady sew bullion for many years. She sew eagle bullion, bullion patches in 1930,1940
    's for the germans too, in the 50's, 60's, 70/s.
    Because of Poland being behind the wall many things did not get there. So we had old thread, old bullion, cloth still made the old way.
    I am in unique position here to evaluate because I have lived both under communist in Poland and later or now in the West.
    For example : burn test : well if the lady sew a eagle in the 1960's using old thread ( od thread does not glow and burns) there goes this test. There were numerous reunions after 1956 for Polish veterans. Many vets got bullion eagles after the War.
    NIE ZAPOMNIJMY O KRESACH.

    TAK BEDZIE JAK BOG DA.

  3. #2143

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    A cigarette case with imperial Russian proofmarks. Eagles look to be of the F. Zajac manufacture in Krakow.

    Polish Hat Eagles

    Polish Hat Eagles

    Polish Hat Eagles
    NIE ZAPOMNIJMY O KRESACH.

    TAK BEDZIE JAK BOG DA.

  4. #2144
    ?

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    What very strange replies from both of you regarding the bullion eagle

    Not sure what the problem is,but there is no dialogue, or chance of a dialogue here

    and it appears this is not just about the poor innocent eagle

    If God himself vouched for the eagle, you would still claim “my stomach knows best”

    Too much complicated discussions about a simple eagle

    Good luck

  5. #2145
    ?

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    It is 2019 ...
    I provide extensive, fact based scientific evidence and expert 'in hand' opinions regarding the authenticity of a bullion eagle patch which was initially condemned as a copy, a fake or a reproduction. However, even in the light of all this evidence, which I believe confirms 'beyond reasonable doubt' that the eagle is of the WW2 era, those who decried the eagle still cannot bring themselves to even acknowledge the possibility that the item could be genuine.

    Instead 'gut feelings' and a rather tenuous story about an old lady who could just possibly have used pre-war materials to make such bullion patches in the '50's, 60's,70/s' seems, for some reason, to have more credibility?

    Seriously?

    There was reference made to the forum working ‘as intended’ to share knowledge, to educate and 'to spur the buyer to do more research .... this is what it is all about.' Yet when the opportunity presents itself to be open minded and reflect on something that just might be plausible the responses from the main protagonists from the doubters corner revert to form and effectively bury their heads in the sand.

    Shame, I genuinely expected better.

  6. #2146

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    " Shame on me " : ok. So You are trying to get me to change my opinion and when I do not you say shame ? Who are you with 3 posts ??

    In the beginning Mr Zwistowski told me in email that this was a COPY.
    Later he changed his opinion : why ? I am not sure, but I will be in Krakow soon and will see Him face to face.

    So there goes your expert...because you have same guy flip flopping so we have to discard that. This is what you have conveniently FORGOTTEN to put in your essay.

    Now your long essay has proven that the copy from eBay is a copy.... bah ahaha...

    Fluorescence when used properly is a great tool, one of many we rely on. Burn test is great as well. But if the patch/eagle was made in Pakistan in 1960's or Poland 1960's or Italy in 1954, then burn test and fluorescence will not work. Fluorescence has limits.

    and now for your own words Jaros :

    "After discussing the matter with 'dorava' it quickly became clear that as well as both being rather upset by the posts on the forum and that despite the negative views we both firmly believed the bullion eagle patch to be a genuine WW2 period item. "

    Objectivity is the word. If one believes something is real they will write the narrative to support it.

    As far as burying heads in the sand.... I can take apart that essay you wrote, piece by piece , line by line. But I refused to. I have my opinion, and it has not changed. If you don't like it... Oh well....
    NIE ZAPOMNIJMY O KRESACH.

    TAK BEDZIE JAK BOG DA.

  7. #2147

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    By the way : no one like my Cigarette Case ?
    NIE ZAPOMNIJMY O KRESACH.

    TAK BEDZIE JAK BOG DA.

  8. #2148

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    Jaros : some sources that I use.
    And Jaros is knowingly omitting something lying ?

    Polish Hat Eagles
    NIE ZAPOMNIJMY O KRESACH.

    TAK BEDZIE JAK BOG DA.

  9. #2149

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    Fellows,
    Can you please start adding / posting some quality Eagles, please?
    Result of that - will be much better engagement on the subject matter.

    One of my favourite one - attached
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Polish Hat Eagles  

  10. #2150

    Default

    Quote by Jaros View Post
    It is 2019 ...
    I provide extensive, fact based scientific evidence and expert 'in hand' opinions regarding the authenticity of a bullion eagle patch which was initially condemned as a copy, a fake or a reproduction. However, even in the light of all this evidence, which I believe confirms 'beyond reasonable doubt' that the eagle is of the WW2 era, those who decried the eagle still cannot bring themselves to even acknowledge the possibility that the item could be genuine. . . Yet when the opportunity presents itself to be open minded and reflect on something that just might be plausible the responses from the main protagonists from the doubters corner revert to form and effectively bury their heads in the sand.

    Shame, I genuinely expected better.
    If you’re after a concession of defeat, sorry it’s not coming. My head’s not in the sand, rather I am tight on time of late and did not see the need to drag out the debate. My opinion remains unchanged and the reasons remain on the record in my prior posts.

    I will admit surprise at Mr. Zawistowski’s alleged change of mind, but otherwise nothing convincing was presented in ”all this evidence”. In fact, on seeing the side by side photos of the backsides I am even more convinced that these eagle are both from the same maker and therefore of modern production, regardless of the insignificant presence of some yellow threads. I disagree that the “the basic construction differed significantly”. With the backing removed the basic construction is identical.

    You mention several tests, yet for what is claimed to be “extensive, fact based scientific evidence” we are largely left to accept these findings on faith. Fluorescence tests are the only actual test data provided, but it is well known that this test serves only as a quick check in some circumstances. It is hardly reliable, and certainly not conclusive. Two identical pieces, with one having undergone a chemical aging bath, will result in different reaction to UV light.

    Re. the burn test, the portion of the eagle used as the sample material was not specified nor any sort of proof shown. You mentioned a smell test, but did not elaborate on the results, not that this would carry any weight here. You also mention that under magnification slight variations in the bullion thread size were visible, but your appeal to scientific evidence as the main thrust of your rebuttal would benefit from providing actual data. So we are forced again accept this on faith. Under magnification one may see the variations you claim, but these must be miniscule as the bullion thread in the side by side images does not show any appreciable differences whatsoever. Take another look. More on the bullion thread issue shortly.

    Polish Hat Eagles

    As far as the comments of your experts, Krakow1 will meet shortly with Mr. Zawistowski to discuss this further and I suggest he show him the side by side photos of the two eagles. I suspect he has not seen them. Mr. Pawlowski’s comments are hardly a ringing endorsement of authenticity. And your friend at the militaria fair, being a collector of German militaria limits the authority of his commentary on Polish WW2 bullion eagles. He would not know the important facts that this eagle is:

    - of a highly unusual pattern with its open style crown , rather than the rounded closed type crown seen on all other period eagles
    - not included in any extant literature
    - not seen on any known genuine headwear that I have yet seen
    - not seen in any period photographs that I have yet seen
    - not contained in any collections I know, save dorava’s and now yours.

    The actual experts I cited earlier are collectors who have years of experience in this specific area of militaria, and you disregard their opinions at your own peril.

    Of course, I agree that judging “a bullion eagle patch, or any other medal or badge etc, only from an image” is unwise, but let’s not give short shrift to the information gained from a close visual examination by any collector with years of experience. It is strikingly obvious that both eagles have identical details. The weave of the breast feathers, the wing construction, the amazon shield details, the overall dimensions, all tell us something inescapable. The “numerous dimensional variations including: crown width and height, wing tip to wing tip, width and depth of the Amazon shield,” are all well within expected tolerances for a handmade item. I’m not sure how long you have been collecting bullion eagles, or how many you have handled and inspected, but you should know that such minor differences in any of the recognized period patterns are to be expected. I have a large reference archive of bullion eagle images built up over almost twenty years and can back this up.

    In order for me to accept that we have an eagle from the 1940’s and its modern replica, aside from ignoring the points above and the comments of experts I cited, I would have to believe that 70+ years later the modern maker obtained the identical bullion thread types present in the middle of the amazon shield, the perimeter bordering, wings, crown, etc. All being different types. Had I not at one time attempted (and failed) to convincingly repair damaged bullion insignia I might have entertained the possibility that we may indeed have an amazingly accurate replica of a wartime eagle. But it was my experience in attempting to restore damaged bullion insignia that exposed me to the vast variety of bullion thread types, and that it is impossible (at least for me) to satisfactorily match currently available bullion thread to the types used back in the day. Failing this I thought to try using period bullion from British, Canadian and US insignia, but yet again it was impossible to find matches. If you or any reader doubts this I recommend giving it a try. And yet here we have an eagle purported to be from the 1940’s that uses the identical bullion thread types throughout, in particular the very unique “faceted” type in the middle section of the amazon shield. This latter little detail alone is the coup de grâce to any suggestion that these eagles have 7 decades between them.

    Quote by Jaros View Post
    Clearly the known copy has probably been based on a known genuine, probably rare, original bullion eagle example ... who's to say that the dorava eagle is not that eagle?
    That’s a stretch. Believe what you will. Again, if you’re satisfied that you have something genuine then that’s great. Enjoy it.

    Regards,
    Tony
    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

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