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Polish little group

Article about: Hello guys, i'am new on this forum and will introduce myself short. My name is Pieter; i live in flanders-Belgium and my speer of my collection is WWII 1st armored division items (US), but i

  1. #1

    Default Polish little group

    Hello guys,

    i'am new on this forum and will introduce myself short. My name is Pieter; i live in flanders-Belgium and my speer of my collection is WWII 1st armored division items (US), but i als collect stuff from my own liberators of my city and that are the brave Polish soldiers (my deepest respect to them!!).

    Now, i found a little group and like to get your opinion about it -Original or not?
    Many thanx so far!
    Kind regards, Pieter.




  2. #2

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    Hello Pieter, and welcome to the forum. I've moved your question over to the section for the Polish exiled armed forces. The only period original items in this lot are the two buttons. The remaining items are post war reproductions.

    Regards,
    Tony
    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

  3. #3

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    Quote by A.J. Zawadzki View Post
    Hello Pieter, and welcome to the forum. I've moved your question over to the section for the Polish exiled armed forces. The only period original items in this lot are the two buttons. The remaining items are post war reproductions.

    Regards,
    Tony
    Hello Tony;

    Many thanx for the welcome !
    Also for the information; can you please give me some more details and information about the items?
    I've looked and compared Original and repro patches and i see a clear difference between them, but i would be happy to learn and get more information where i must look for in the future.
    I assumed that the back of the Poland shoulder titles where glued and that there has been a chemical reaction on the back; and that this was the reason about the uneven-rough shape... of course my two cents .

    Even the 10th dragoon patch looks nicely finished for me, not like the repro patches.

    But i surely want to learn, and hope to get the information were to look at .

    Kind regards, Pieter.

  4. #4

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    Hi again Pieter,

    Quote by Pieter1942 View Post
    . . . But i surely want to learn, and hope to get the information were to look at
    It’s good to hear of your eagerness to learn. You’ve come to a good place. Continue to dig through the many threads here as there’s a lot of ground covered, much of which directly addresses your questions.

    As I have some spare time on a rainy holiday Monday here are some example of genuine insignia for you to compare. Note that these are not the only examples of genuine period made insignia produced. Other variants exist. This of course doesn’t help make it easier to weed the bad out from the good, so it will take time and study familiarize yourself with what to watch for.

    Re. the shoulder titles, as you know there was quite a variety produced. From experience the type pictured below is most commonly found on genuine period 1st Corps / 1st Polish Armoured Division uniforms. They are found on both officer and enlisted / other ranks uniforms. To the untrained eye they are difficult to distinguish from others, but they are actually quite distinct. Note the backing, stitching, and the text font. I don’t have a reverse side picture handy, but these came with and without a separate backing layer of fabric.

    (click on photos to enlarge)
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    Here’s the eagle that I’ve seen on known genuine period berets. I find the stitching in these is more precise with clearer definition in the feathering and elsewhere. There's no shortage of debate and uncertainty about these.

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    Genuine 10th Dragoons collar pennon. Compare closely. Note the differences in the felt both texture and colour.

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    Genuine 10th Dragoons honorary County of Lanark/St. Andrew’s Cross sleeve insignia. Note stitching pattern differences. The one pictured above is often confused for period insignia as it is quality made. But at best it is a post war UK made ‘veteran issue’. Same goes for the beret eagle.

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    The 1st Armoured flash. They were applied both ways shown. Note the backing wool fabric, which is the type consistently found on uniforms with period applied insignia. I suspect the one above to possibly also be one of the UK made post war vet replacements rather than just a copy/fake.

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    Lastly, the epaulette appears to me to be a created representation rather than an actual uniform piece. I could be wrong though. Here's a real one in the same "chorąży" rank:

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    Cheers,
    Tony
    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

  5. #5

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    Hi Tony;

    This is really good reference!
    I must say, thats it's not easy to find good reference on the internet about these collar and ssi, so many thanx in this case mate!!
    The biggest difference between the patches are to me the roughness about them; i mean it's just like most of the originals were cut from a larger piece of textile before placing them on the uniforms, especially to see on the borders of them..

    I contacted the seller about it (where it comes from) and it comes from a collector's wife (collector pastaway a time ago.). More information i don't have about it...

    I keep in my mind, and hope that this group was possibly made (IN BEST CASE) for a vet in the UK postwar, however this would be very hard to find out.

    Many thanx mate!! I hope to get in the future some good and correct patches and items in my collection from the 1st Armoured divison.

    Thanx!!
    Pieter.

  6. #6

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    Hi again Pieter,

    The internet database continues to increase, and the past twenty years has seen of some helpful collector references. So things are improving. Here's a great site that member Ze-Pole operates. Loaded with great images of genuine 1st Armoured militaria:

    1° D.B. Polonaise du Général Maczek

    The best book you might want to check out that covers militaria of the 1st Armoured Division would probably be the Sawicki / Wojciechowski effort "Polskie Siły Zbrojne na Zachodzie 1939-1947". While not entirely error free, it does a reasonably good job of covering the various badges, insignia, award documents and uniform equipment in what is essentially a 'picture book' format. It's weakness is the lack of detail about production and related matters which serious collectors crave.

    As far as this grouping, best to pass. It's not one that would ultimately give any serious collector satisfaction. With a little patience and some money set aside you're in good position to obtain the right pieces / grouping which will eventually turn up. And be sure to check back here before any purchase.

    Cheers,
    Tony
    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

  7. #7

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    Hi Tony,

    Many Thanx again for the extra information, ill check definately the given link and look out for the book. I buyed this group Before post this on the forum- expensive learn-money i gues :-(..
    Like i said before, my main collection drive is ww2 us militaria; but i would built up a small collection 1st armoured polish militaria and will chat in the future on this forum before i buy something. Because i did a first miss in buying incorrect stuff, i would be very happy if you want to help me further with the good and correct items; even if you know something that's good and correct for sell, you always may contact me
    at pietn-choco@hotmail.com

    Thanx!
    Kind regards, Pieter.

  8. #8

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    Hello,
    Very good choice to colect the first polish arm div !
    If you need infomations, you can use this post :

    Auction items .. Good, Bad or Indifferent ?

    Members of this forum give their point of vue about items to sell on Internet.
    Be carefull... Copies are numerous and better and better well made.

    Thank you Tony to give the link for the blog.

    Best regards.
    ZP

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