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Polish Regimental Badges WW2

Article about: Rare badge from this maker! Thanks for posting this nice clear picture. Regards, Tony

  1. #321

    Default Re: Polish Regimetal Badges WW2

    Sorry - What do you mean?
    Please elaborate.
    A




    Quote by prosty zolnierz View Post
    experience teaches that bogus renditions of originals of whatever ilk are " different " to said originals. if they were identical how would anybody know Caesar's judgment. with regard to your badge, if you study the die characteristics , for example the motto , you will notice many differences compared to the " suspect" version illustrated. your badge is more akin to the shown issued original, albeit sans oakleaves. even with the best will in the world, people who write books make mistakes.

  2. #322

    Default Re: Polish Regimetal Badges WW2

    A, Caesar's judgment, thumb up, thumb down. your badge has the same die characteristics as M's, ergo, good. If AJW considered his example as "suspect " my observation comparing your badge to his was that if the " suspect " badge was indeed duff, it was confirmed by the different die characteristics. the only way to prove a badges is original is to be there when the item is made, a bit difficult when the laws of physics are against you.

  3. #323

    Default Re: Polish Regimetal Badges WW2

    Hi again Wadowicznic,

    Re the SPA badge, I checked the Partyka reference to find a brief write up along with a black and white photo. There’s isn’t too much new information provided. Here it is for what it’s worth.

    Back shortly with more on the 1st Grenadiers badge . . .

    T.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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  4. #324

    Default Re: Polish Regimetal Badges WW2

    First off, thanks to all for the comments on the 1st Grenadiers badge I posted. The Lorioli type post with characteristic hemispherical head did not escape me. The badge itself is very beautifully made. A testament to the fine Italian craftsmanship that went into so many of the Polish unit badges. The posted pictures do not do it justice. Superior to my Kirkwood one in every way.

    Quote by enca View Post
    I had the opportunity to see some productions documents, I don’t know what is the correct term in English, coming from the archive of the company Lorioli. They produced 300 copies of this badge on May 1946.
    The document states that it has the usual 8 mm “round head screw” , and a small point “stabilizing pin” on the top of the reverse.
    So the badge posted by Tony seems to be exactly as described on the production documents of Lorioli.
    Regards
    Enzo
    Enzo, thank you very much for this information! I am thrilled to know the actual production quantity. Do you have such data on the other Lorioli produced badges? If so PLEASE post. We would all be most grateful to you.

    Mariusz, excellent post showing your K&S Type 2 badge and the award documents!

    Wadowicznic – good news for you. A quick scan through my archives reveals evidence suggesting that the earlier Type 1 non-wreathed version by Kirkwood like yours was made in both maker marked and non-marked versions. Your badge is identical to those – including the die flaw on the reverse behind the eagle’s head. This same die flaw appears on Type 2 badges, but very faintly. In my opinion your badge is a genuine Kirkwood badge.

    Pictured below is a composite showing Mariusz’s Type 2 on the far left, Wadowicznic’s Type 1 on the far right, sandwiching two other genuine Type 1’s. Note the die flaw. Also, take a look on page 457 of the Sawicki/Wielchowski reference and you’ll see the same flaw in the maker marked Type 1 at the top. My Type 2 K&S also has the same flaw.

    Regards,
    T.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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  5. #325

    Default Re: Polish Regimetal Badges WW2

    Tony
    Fascinating debate!
    Excellent work – look like we are now all cool on K&S ones

    How about the Italian ones?
    Nr 1 with - “stabilising pin” you have
    Nr 2 with Lorioli spinner and “damaged” back – i have

    This forum is almost like CSI movie series !



    Quote by A.J. Zawadzki View Post
    First off, thanks to all for the comments on the 1st Grenadiers badge I posted. The Lorioli type post with characteristic hemispherical head did not escape me. The badge itself is very beautifully made. A testament to the fine Italian craftsmanship that went into so many of the Polish unit badges. The posted pictures do not do it justice. Superior to my Kirkwood one in every way.


    Enzo, thank you very much for this information! I am thrilled to know the actual production quantity. Do you have such data on the other Lorioli produced badges? If so PLEASE post. We would all be most grateful to you.

    Mariusz, excellent post showing your K&S Type 2 badge and the award documents!

    Wadowicznic – good news for you. A quick scan through my archives reveals evidence suggesting that the earlier Type 1 non-wreathed version by Kirkwood like yours was made in both maker marked and non-marked versions. Your badge is identical to those – including the die flaw on the reverse behind the eagle’s head. This same die flaw appears on Type 2 badges, but very faintly. In my opinion your badge is a genuine Kirkwood badge.

    Pictured below is a composite showing Mariusz’s Type 2 on the far left, Wadowicznic’s Type 1 on the far right, sandwiching two other genuine Type 1’s. Note the die flaw. Also, take a look on page 457 of the Sawicki/Wielchowski reference and you’ll see the same flaw in the maker marked Type 1 at the top. My Type 2 K&S also has the same flaw.

    Regards,
    T.

  6. #326

    Default Re: Polish Regimetal Badges WW2

    Hi so my badge is type 2 badge given in 1943 and sign by gen. bryg. Duch, on award document, say FRANCJA 1940 SZKOCJA 1943. Did Andzej had to be in France in 1940, and later in Scotland 1943 in order to get that badge. I see award documents
    to the badge given in SZKOCJA 1946 did they have to be in France 1940 in order to get that badge? On Andrzeys award documents say 1.DYWIZJA GRANADIEROW, and on anther award document from 1946 is 1.BRYGADA GRANADIEROW.

  7. #327

    Default Re: Polish Regimetal Badges WW2

    [QUOTE=Mariusz;115568]. . . Did Andzej had to be in France in 1940, and later in Scotland 1943 in order to get that badge. . . .QUOTE]
    Hi Andrzej,

    Good questions. And yes, that is the case. As evidenced by the award document (which provides details of official acceptance and date of the badge), the badges were issued in Scotland in 1943 to veterans of the 1st Grenadiers Division from the 1940 French campaign.

    The 1946 issue refers to the 1st Grenadiers Brigade, which was formed in Scotland post war in 1945 and followed the traditions of the1st Grenadiers Division. The unit never did see combat, and thus the laurel wreath is absent from the badge.

    So in hindsight, the earlier wreathed combat version should more correctly be referred to as the “Type 1”, although it is commonly the other way around.

    Regards,
    Tony

  8. #328

    Default Re: Polish Regimetal Badges WW2

    The award documents for 1st Grenadiers Division were sign by gen. bryg. Duch. Duch was in France 1940, later in Canada, and Scotland in 1943. Than from 1943-1946 ha served with 2nd Polish Corps.
    Bolesław Bronisław Duch (1885-1980) was a Polish Major General.
    Duch served during World War I, 1914-18, in the Polish Legions. After Poland regained independence, he served in the Polish Army. In 1935-1938 he commanded the 73rd Infantry Regiment. At the outbreak of World War II, he de facto commanded the 39th Reserve Infantry Division.
    After Poland was overrun by Germany and the Soviet Union in September 1939, Duch served in western Europe, becoming commander successively of the Polish 1st Grenadier Division in France (1940), 1st Rifle Brigade of the 1st Polish Corps in Scotland (1942-43), and of the 3rd Carpathian Infantry Division of the 2nd Polish Corps (1943-46).
    November 13, 1939 commander in chief, Gen. Wladyslaw Sikorski gave a formal order of formation 1 Infantry Division
    On June 21, 1940 Gen. Brig. Bronisław Duch to the impossibility of further fighting and taking calls on the capitulation of France has decided to dissolve the Division and the beting soldiers south of France or Switzerland. This Division ceased to exist On June 21, 1940. Parts of the soldiers managed to get to the UK, including the division commander, gen. brig. Duch
    March 20, 1943 was organized 1st Grenadiers Division (Personnel only kadrow). Scotland

    September 21, 1943 under the orders of the Supreme Commander No 1210 and 1220 1 DG (k) has been renamed 2 Dywizję Grenadierów Pancernych (Personnel only kadrow).

    In my opinion the badge was awarded to solders who where in Scotland March 20, 1943 to September 21, 1943 in newly formed 1st Grenadiers Division (Personnel only kadrow), but they had to served in France 1939-1940 in order to get that badge. Please tell me if im wrong.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  9. #329

    Default Re: Polish Regimetal Badges WW2

    Quote by Mariusz View Post
    . . . In my opinion the badge was awarded to solders who where in Scotland March 20, 1943 to September 21, 1943 in newly formed 1st Grenadiers Division (Personnel only kadrow), but they had to served in France 1939-1940 in order to get that badge. Please tell me if im wrong.
    Mariusz, that makes sense, although I’m inclined to think that all veterans of the 1st Grenadiers Division were awarded the badge, not just those in the “Personnel only kadrow”.

    Regards,
    T.

  10. #330

    Default Re: Polish Regimetal Badges WW2

    What I know:
    1 Dywizja Grenadierów 13 November 1939 to 21 June 1940.
    In June 1940 1DG had 16 165 men. France
    I did not see award documents, but Badge was made of light metal.
    (is award documents as Andrzej Smakowskis FRANCE 1940 SCOTLAND 1943)?

    1 Dywizja Grenadierów March 20, 1943 to September 21, 1943.
    1DG had Personnel only (kadrowa)
    Andzejs badge and award documents

    1 Brygada Grenadierów June 1, 1945 to ?
    1BG had oficers from I Korpusu Polskiego, 80% of solders came from pressed German solders, or Todta organization.
    On the award documents say 1.BRYGADA GRANADIEROW SZKOCJA 1946.

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