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Two 5th KDP arm flashes

Article about: Two different arm insignia, both of the 5th KDP. They differ in construction form the usual chess cloth backed variety. One, possibly an officers issue?, is worsted on khaki cloth. the other

  1. #11
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    Quote by A.J. Zawadzki View Post
    Hi Kosa, I'd really like to see that photo. This example reminds me of the Pakistani made 2nd Corps fakes and I'm inclined to consider this one guilty until proven innocent.

    Regards,
    Tony
    Hahaha. Let me finish my coffee and I am hitting the road to take a picture of that old photo to prove this badge is geniune. Just kidding. I don't have it but hopefully I will post that photo some day. Untill then stay inclined to believe it's a fake.
    Oh, I clean forgot! Some including Marek Wroński consider the badge to be made in Iran at an early stage of formation of the Polish II Corps.

    Best,
    Kosa

  2. #12

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    Hi Kosa,

    I’m not passing final judgment on this one quite yet and can only comment about the similarities in crudeness to known fakes. So much so that I am very wary of it. But it’s ill advised to immediately banish any 2nd Corps insignia to the fake bin on account of the many variations produced. But I’ll add that I have never seen this particular type on a genuine period uniform nor in a photograph.

    It has some similarities to this one, which once formed part of a comprehensive grouping that I now own. The previous owner sold me the entire grouping including the BD blouse, but kept this one patch, which I am trying to recover.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    As an aside, the BD has a rare bullion thread version of the 5KDP. Never seen another like it:

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    As to the one you posted possibly being a very early production piece, Jan Partyka in his reference states that “the first patches were machine embroidered on thin fabric with a stiffener” but omits mentioning where or when. This one does not seem to fit that description.

    This design originated with the precursor of the 5KDP, the 5th Wileński Infantry Division, in 1942 upon arrival in Iraq after evacuation from the USSR. It was formally adopted by the 5KDP in 1944, and from a quck search of period photos it seems that it is only around this time that the insignia starts appearing on uniforms.

    Regards,
    Tony
    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

  3. #13
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    Cześć

    Anotoni, from my observations I gather, that hand-made flashes show different degree of crudeness as hand embroidery stitches are not perfect. Period photos show different flashes. There was more that one supplier of flashes until the Polish II Corps adopted the official 5.KDP flash. Same with 3.DSK fashes. Craftsmanship varies from region to region.
    Like I said before I will post that photo when I see the owner again. At this point of time I am posting a photo from my collection. It was taken in Tel-Aviv in January 1943. Perhaps a New Year photo. You can see an early hand-made 3.DSK flash, which is crude compared to the official one. I never pass final judgements on flashes.

    Best,
    Kosa

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  4. #14

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    Hi Kosa,

    Agreed with all of your statements. 3DSK cloth insignia probably have the widest production variations. Fortunately there's plenty of surviving evidence to aid in weeding out most of the good from the bad. Some of these “choinki” have been covered in a dedicated thread elsewhere here.

    I’ve taken a moment to try to find an example of one of the so-called Pakistani fakes, and can only come up with this 6LBS example at the moment. Common characteristics are the use of a course unrefined thread, the overall stitching system, etc. As a combined whole they have that certain unmistakable look to them. Again, not passing judgment yet, only keeping the discussion rolling . . .

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Regards,
    Tony
    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

  5. #15

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    Found this obverse image of another of the purported Pakistani fakes that along with the 6LBS flash above was a common fixture on ebay a decade ago.

    Another distinguishing element of the fakes is the generally weak rendition of the central object of the insignia, in this case the eagle. Dark thread is then used to highlight various features which results in an awkward effect, at least to my eye:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Regards,
    Tony
    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

  6. #16
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    Cześć Anotni,

    Hahaha. Yes! At first glance the 6LBS and 5KDP flashes look very similar. Everyone I know considers the 6LBP a fake. Agreed. It is a fake indeed, but when it comes to the 5.KDP flash some believe it is an early variation. I have had both of them in hand and honestly the feel is way different.

    While on flashes. A janitor at my high school was in the 2nd Polish Crops. Originally he was SBSK and then 3.DSK. Nobody knew his history and probably nobody would ever know but I used to drop in to his room to puff on cigarettes, and this is how our friendship started. He told me many interesting stories on his service, on Tobruk and Monte Cassino, on Bologna and many others including his return to Poland and humiliation that followed.
    Many years later I saw a listing of a pretty crude 3.DSK flash. The back was three colors and then I remembered he told me that soldiers often made arm flashes themselves from Italian silk flags. I hope this little story is of some interests to others.

    Best,
    Kosa

  7. #17

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    Hello!
    Unfortunately I have to agree with Tony, I havve a lot of doubts with 5KDP flash badge shown by kosa. As I remember one or two years ago it was very easy to purchase this type on ebay as a reproduction patch.
    Variants of polish 2nd Corps flashes is very interesting. There are many variantions, this early ones are really rare and hard to find on market.
    Best Regards
    Michal

  8. #18
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    Quote by MichalMag View Post
    Hello!
    I havve a lot of doubts with 5KDP flash badge shown by kosa.
    Well now...Michał. Imagine we're at court. This is legal dispute between parties and the judge asks you to submit hard evidence to prove your point....What now?
    By the way, I can't remeber to have seen such a flash on ebay for w few years...

    Best,
    Kosa

  9. #19

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    haha, yes, let's imagine we're in a court of law. Doesn't the burden of proof lie with the plaintiff? It seems the evidence presented thus far in support of the items innocence is rather scant . . .

    Cheers,
    Tony
    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

  10. #20
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    Quote by A.J. Zawadzki View Post
    It seems the evidence presented thus far in support of the items innocence is rather scant . . .
    Well, perhaps the allegations are true, but there's yet no evidence the prosecutors have hard evidence

    Cheers,
    Kosa

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