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The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

Article about: I wonder if Stefan Oberleitner was duped into believing that such a decoration existed, or is there some truth to all of this. It would be interesting to check the entry in the “Symbolika Po

  1. #11

    Default Re: The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

    I wonder if Stefan Oberleitner was duped into believing that such a decoration existed, or is there some truth to all of this. It would be interesting to check the entry in the “Symbolika Polski Walczącej" book by Lesław J. Welker.

    Regards,
    T.
    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

  2. #12

    Default Re: The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

    I also don't have “Symbolika Polski Walczącej". Lesław J. Welker has produced several reference books about Warsaw Rising commemorative badges, medals and awards and as far as I know is a respected author, so it seems unlikely he would add something that was a 'fantasy' piece without making a reference to that fact in his book?

    Will make some enquires at the NSZ archives. Will report back if I have any further information to add.
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  3. #13

    Default Re: The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

    Chrobry II was an NSZ, AK, some AL, KBW and others. Oberleitner's book was one of the first one post 1989 period, a great reference. Now, logically speaking: I have read multiple "Uprising" theme books, all in Polish I grew up and went to High School in Krakow in 1970's, we had people who were in the Rising come to school and give lectures and never until Oberleitner I had even heard any mention of this award.
    How many Iron Crosses could have been captured???? Look at what was left of the City after germans finished with it?? look at pictures of soldiers going into captivity, would anyone be crazy enough to walk in front of Germans with this on their uniform??? or under their uniform?? How would possibly any examples of this survive??? Would anyone be crazy enough to try to carry this into ocaptivity ? Same thing with the KBW badges that come up for sale, some marked for the Krakow district:: would someone in conspiracy carry a badge like that: for real?? Oberleitner uses a term "probably" or most likely in conjunction with Chrobry II, he does not know for sure. Also, does anyone think that during the little breaks in fighting, hungry, no weapons they actually would spend time making an order like that???? Germans also had an unofficial badge:: "Warschau " shield, never authorised but sold to many collectors. One more point: some of this "new" references are merely repeating Oberleitner and others and are not necessary doing any homework.

  4. #14

    Default Re: The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

    However some did find time to mould and cast Polish eagle cap badges and stamp eagles out of tin plate such as on the cap in my collection (photos attached) , so it is not completely outside the realm of possiblity some such crosses were made.
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    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  5. #15

    Default Re: The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

    I think that there is a difference between a "National Recognision Symbol" such as eagle and creating an elaborate "unofficial issue??" badge. These eagles were made most likely prior to outbreak of Rising, I mean the first thing that the soldiers did was to put eagle on and armbands. Can someone explain how actually the killing of an SS Officer was verified?? By whom? This was close combat, dirty, no breaks, our guys especially in the beginnig with little or no weapons. There is not one account, one picture that would verify that medal/badge. Also, how would this badge survive??? Look at pictures of the City after. And it is true that possibly Joe someone made something like that for Jack to wear, but really......

  6. #16

    Default Re: The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

    One more thing that I had overlooked: The EK or Iron Cross in the picture posted by Tony appears to be a second class: there were 1st class worn on everyday uniform attached by a vertical pin and in some rare cases by a screw post with a washer. The 2nd class EK like the one posted was only worn on parade uniform, everyday they would wear a ribbon in the third buttonhole. So unless the soldiers got hold of someone going to a parade??? I just don't see how they would capture EK 2nd class in battle. And I believe that some of our German forum guys can confirm that if they care to.

  7. #17

    Default Re: The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

    I would not suggest any such crosses if they existed in the first place might survive. I am sure that all of those crosses that turn up pretty frequently are, like a lot of militaria, just fake including the photos Tony posted. However that still doesn't mean this cross never existed.

    How did my AK cap survive the fires of Warsaw given the destruction and devastation? It did survive so there may indeed be surving crosses if they were made.

    You are right it was close combat fighting, but to say it was without breaks is not correct; many wedding ceremonies took place during breaks between fighting as well as funerals with full military honours of course. Groups of fighting soldiers often posed for photos whilst relaxing during lulls in the fighting... I have many in my collection. So it is not outside the bounds of possibilty that awards as well as ammunition could also be made during these lulls in the fighting.

    I think that it is more likely that one cross master would have been made and then a simple mould taken for other crosses to be cast from that rather than a cross taken from a number of SS and awards assembled from a collection of crosses and coins. Again there were workshops operating casting ammunition so a possibilty exists.
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  8. #18

    Default Re: The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

    A cap: well it was a part of uniform therefore it would could be worn into captivity. Yes, there were weddings, funerals and breaks and shops making NECESSITIES. (Weapons, ammo, explosives food, etc). Also what you say about the mold maybe correct, but that is not what Oberleitner says. An who during these hectic days would worry about making such complicated unofficial badge ???

  9. #19

    Default Re: The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

    Just one more thing:: all the pictures that You have, all the pictures that people have seen, published, there is not one that shows that badge. If I was in fact given one I would like to have a picture taken wearing one, as frequently they did have pictures taken sporting things: whether be SS camo, or KW, etc.

  10. #20

    Default Re: The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

    And were these awards just given on honorary bases?? without a cerificate, or some way of knowing who is entitled to wear one??
    Who was awarding these: was it buddy to buddy, a Company commander to soldiers???

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