Become our sponsor and display your banner here
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 37

The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

Article about: I wonder if Stefan Oberleitner was duped into believing that such a decoration existed, or is there some truth to all of this. It would be interesting to check the entry in the “Symbolika Po

  1. #21

    Default Re: The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

    I am hoping one day to find answers to some of the valid points you raise, that is what makes this 'hobby' we share such a pleasure for me. I am not agreeing or disagreeing to the existence of such an award... I always try to keep an open mind when the evidence is inconclusive.


    Do you know the story of Major 'Hubal' - Henryk Dobrzański's Virtuti Militari decoration after he was killed in 1940?

    Some time after Major Hubal’s death, an underground courier gave a young AK girl 'Kaja'(real name: Cezarią Iljin-Szymanska) Hubal's Virtuti Militari Award to protect it. During the Warsaw Rising, 'Kaja' (see id photo attached), was in battlegroup "Radosław" as a courier and twice twice wounded, she wore the award as a necklace, often moving via the Warsaw sewer system. After the Warsaw Rising collapsed, 'Kaja' journeyed eastward searching for her mother. She was captured by the Russian NKVD in Bialystok, she was imprisoned in Ostashkov for one year. She had hidden the V.M. in a hollowed out shoe and despite many interrogations by the NKVD it was never discovered. 'Kaja' protected the V.M. (see photo attached of Hubal's V.M.) for 54 years.

    This story is told in:

    Kaja od Radosława, czyli historia Hubalowego Krzyża
    (Kaja from Radoslaw, the story of the Hubal Cross - published in December 2007,


    My point is to illustrate the fact that awards are sometimes hidden and remain undiscovered in circumsatnces where one would least expect them to survive
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

Name:	kaja_cov.jpg 
Views:	135 
Size:	174.6 KB 
ID:	230088   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	kaja_w_okresie_okupacji.jpg 
Views:	159 
Size:	189.3 KB 
ID:	230089  

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	krzyz_virtuti_militari_hubala.jpg 
Views:	435 
Size:	151.2 KB 
ID:	230090  
    Last edited by StefanM; 08-11-2011 at 08:07 PM.
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  2. #22

    Default Re: The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

    Yes, I have the book. But we have to compare apples to apples, and not apples to oranges. If she was caught with the VM by soviets they would just take it away, versus germans catching a pole with that monstrosity; they would skin one alive. I am merely dissproving what Oberleitner is saying, one can make up countless scenarios, and one more thing: the reason german would not wear actual order EK 2nd class) for it would be impossible not to loose it. Imagine someone running, getting down, up, with that thing on their uniform, may get You teeth knocked out. And while we are on the subject: why SS, there were countless animals (Dirlewanger, Rona, Ost Legion, Kozaks) fighting us that were lot worse than SS. And why make a monstrosity like that order, might as well be making a "White Eagle". We have a responsibility on this forum not to repeat and try to dissprove urban legends. For in 15 or 20 years people will say : well it has to be true it is in a book. Well, a book by a "Leading Authority on Polish badges" shows fake VM crosses as genuine. Just another quick story: 1991 in Warsaw I purchased about 5k worth of SS rare daggers, they turned out to be good fakes after a prolog examination by experts, but fakes indeed. They started making copies in Poland a long long time ago, that is when someone says they bought a pre war polish uniform in year 2000......... This forum is wonderful, I mean we have real genuine experts here, for example on Polish Para Badges: 2 world known experts: GFC and Gary J. On some prewar and all of Polish army in the West Tony has no equals but we have to be responsible to future generations and dissprove the urban legends.

  3. #23

    Default Re: The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

    Indeed it is important to find out the facts and to dispel the urban legends as you say, but all you have offered is your opinion on why you think this award was unlikely to have existed not concrete evidence that it did not. Who would YOU consider THE expert on Warsaw fighting units etc... I would like to contact them to find out more?

    You asked how such an award could be hidden after the fall of Warsaw and I gave an answer through an example of an award that was worn during the uprising and did remain hidden—'Kaja' could not have known how dangerous or not it was for her keep this secret hiding place for Hubal's VM but you will know she did not confess to her NKVD interrogators that she had Hubal's VM. She could have saved herself a lot of pain by just handing it over. This is an apple with an apple comparison; Kaja could essliy have been picked up by the Germans as she escaped Warsaw it just happens she evaded them but not the NKVD. The medal is not the issue it, this issue is she hid an important decoration that menat a lot to her just as someone who had a Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego might also have considered it important enough to hide it from potential captors just as "Kaja' did. I am not saying it happened just it could have.

    In the case of how could a Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego survive the destruction of Warsaw along with the forced expulsion into captivity of the insurgents, again we know not all of the insurgents went into captivity and German PoW camps many insurgents slipped into the civilian ranks to fight another day. There are many published examples of this. So here is another possiblity of how such a cross could have survived. I am not saying it happened but it is a possibility you will have to agree?

    I can see you have a fixed view about this subject based on the knowledge you have acquired and your view may in the end prove correct, but I am still opened-minded about it until there is a definitive answer. I welcome and appeal again for any sources and article references about this interesting urban-legend, hence my instigating this thread in the first place

    Is it just an urban legend that recipients of the Polish Virtuti Militari were required by military regulations to wear their V.M.s even during combat? I am not an expert but I am sure I heard this somewhere? If that were true then they would also be darting about under combat and loosing medals left right and centre? And if it were true it may aslo be true for wearers of the German Iron Cross ... is it not possible?

    Late edit: I just copied this out of another website which is were I could have heard it originally:

    .... Polish military regulations required that the highest decoration a soldier was awarded be worn at all times even in combat or in training. Most of these original VMs were lost during WWII when Polish soldiers were captured or executed as in the case of the Katyn Forest Massacre w 20,000 Polish officers and enlisted were executed by the Soviets. Photos are seen with bodies still wearing their decorations.
    Last edited by StefanM; 08-11-2011 at 08:19 PM.
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  4. #24

    Default Re: The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

    It is not only my view, I am going off Oberleitner's explanation,and showing that what he says makes no sense, What You say about VM is correct, many did ended in graves of Katyn, etc, but pray show pictures of ranks wearing VM (the actual medal, not the ribbon) in the rising. Staff maybe so, but ranks and file..... The german EK 2class military regulations say a ribbon in the third buttonhole for 2nd class and 1st class EK was pinback, or screwback on rare ocassion.

  5. #25

    Default Re: The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

    I personally cannot show any pictures of the V.M. being worn during the Uprising but I have attached a couple of photo references (one a close-crop of the main photo in Kopf's book) to the iron cross being worn during the fighting albeit another is worn by a Cossack collaborator...

    So it is entirely possible that more German's were wearing the same. I think in fairness you will also agree it is possible?

    And logically it could also be that some of these German's were killed wearing an iron cross decoration and that someone could have made a Polish decoration using a cross from dead German soldier.... all quite feasible.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_3766.jpg 
Views:	329 
Size:	199.9 KB 
ID:	230382   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	SS+with+Cossacks+during+battle+of+Warsaw+1944.jpg 
Views:	2438 
Size:	62.6 KB 
ID:	230383  

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_3765.jpg 
Views:	497 
Size:	48.6 KB 
ID:	230385  
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  6. #26

    Default Re: The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

    My friend that is a Knight Cross of Iron Cross, the highest german military decoration and it was worn on the ribbon around the neck. The dimension of this order were different. Oberleitner and any other reference state : Iron Cross, not Knight's Cross. I know of no account of Knight Cross being captured in 'Rising. Totally different class of order, a Knight Cross is worth anywhere between 10k and up, where EK or Iron Cross 2nd class 150, 1st Class about $400. And in spirit of fairness I would love to agree with You, but..........

  7. #27

    Default Re: The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

    I bow to your superior knowledge of German crosses, but the fact remains that an even more illustrious decoration is shown to be worn in combat on a ribbon and yet you thought it unlikley such a high decoration would be worn as it could so easily be lost in any fighting?

    But I think our most enjoyable conversation on this issue has run its course as neither of us have a definitve answer on whether the Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego existed or not, we only have our respective conjectures
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  8. #28

    Default Re: The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

    Hi guys,
    I can throw some light on the thread, namely a friend priest of mine, a historian and a truly authority on heraldry, told me once, that he had seen a genuine cross while anointing the sick Warsaw Uprising veteran at his home. The ribbon was a standard pre-war Cross of Valour model with one stripe dyed with red ink.
    As soon as I meet him I'll ask him about some details on the cross.

    Regards,
    Tom

  9. #29

    Default Re: The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

    How facsinating ...would be very interested to learn more from your contact
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  10. #30

    Default Re: The Cross of the Warsaw Uprising (Krzyż Powstania Warszawskiego)

    Now I know that Warsaw is a big city, but......

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Cross of Valour (Krzyż Walecznych) – Pre-WW2 Types

    In Polish Armed Forces - Second Republic (Siły Zbrojne II Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej) 1918-1939
    10-09-2017, 03:17 PM
  2. Warsaw Uprising SA Dienstdolch

    In SA Dienstdolch
    11-12-2013, 02:42 PM
  3. Krzyż Oświęcimski - Auschwitz cross

    In Polish Resistance in WW2 (Armia Krajowa)
    11-12-2010, 06:41 PM
  4. Uprising commemorative badge?

    In Polish Resistance in WW2 (Armia Krajowa)
    02-17-2010, 09:23 PM
  5. Georgian uprising on Texel

    In After the Battle
    03-02-2009, 11:50 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •