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Orders and Medals repair

Article about: by 3mk Contact the starter of this thread back from the dead you decide?? - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums He does a good job on all militaria related repairs, I had him repair enamal

  1. #1

    Default Orders and Medals repair

    Dear members.

    This thread to share experience with repairs.

    I start here with some pictures because I could use some good
    advice. What should be done and what should not be touched? Is it
    possible to repair enamel, and is it expensive?

    Regards
    Martin
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    Last edited by Martin DK; 07-17-2010 at 03:47 PM.

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  3. #2
    ?

    Default Re: Orders and Medals repair

    Quote by Martin DK View Post
    Dear members.

    This thread to share experience with repairs.

    I start here with some pictures because I could use some good
    advice. What should be done and what should not be touched? Is it
    possible to repair enamel, and is it expensive?

    Regards
    Martin
    I'd try and fix the KVK myself, with some super glue or solder. The others I'd leave alone, although some may disagree.
    Enamel can be repaired. Top quality repairs will cost a lot, cheaper quality reapirs will be, well, cheaper.

  4. #3
    ?

    Default Re: Orders and Medals repair

    I have no knowledge of a TR piece, so moving on to the next one ....

    This appears to be the reverse of the current croix du chevalier de la Légion d'honneur / Chevalier's Cross of the (French) Legion of Honor. I would guess that a good repair of the enamel and the ribbon would be far more expensive than finding another one in better condition. So, unless you have individual (and hopefully family or otherwise meaningful) attribution, how bad would it be to display her showing the obverse with la très belle fille "La République"?
    http://patrickpike.blogs.sudouest.co...1941916012.JPG

    The next one appears to be the reverse of the Ordinul Coroana României cu coroană şi spade în grad de Ofiţer / Officer's Cross with Swords of the Order of the Crown of Romania (Type II, 1938-1947, military division).
    The details of the (missing?) ribbon are not unimportant ....
    "The ribbon of the type II award is blue with a single central white stripe. On the Knight and Officer's badge, the ribbon is 40 mm wide with a 7 mm central stripe. During times of war gold stripes were added to the edges of the ribbon. In instances when the Order was awarded for bravery, the ribbon of the medal of Military Virtue was substituted. This ribbon was red, bordered on each edge with 5 mm light blue stripes. The Military Virtue ribbon was authorized only for the Knight and Officer grades of the order."
    Order of the Crown of Romania
    http://www.marunteanu.ro/mare/coroanarom.jpg
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...aniei_IV_l.jpg
    One might think that if a ribbon were also available that the repair of the enamal on the reverse might be considered. At least researching the number awarded, value and rarity of this Cross could be worthwhile.

    Next I think is a Kaiserlich-Österreischischer Franz-Joseph-Orden / Imperial Austrian Franz Joseph Order - Bruststern zum Komtur / Commader's Star (1869-1918).
    http://www.sammlerecke.at/orden/images/3.jpg
    As awarded during World War I for military officers, with Swords and quite rare:
    http://www.sammlerecke.at/orden/images/4.jpg
    The damage looks small in your photo. A good restoration might be appropriate if there are correct hallmarks and/or good provenance.

    You find a very kewl mix of pieces!

    - Frayer

  5. #4
    3mk
    3mk is offline
    ?

    Default Re: Orders and Medals repair

    Contact the starter of this thread
    back from the dead you decide?? - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums


    He does a good job on all militaria related repairs, I had him repair enamal on one of my badges for around 5 pounds + shipping

  6. #5

    Default Re: Orders and Medals repair

    3mk

    I may soon join the Wehrmacht so I can see the pictures. It sounds almost too good to be true Enamel work, do not try this at home.

    Frayer

    Great info you found. I have a ribbon for the Romanian order, but it does not look like those you have described. It may be this is the wrong ribbon? As you can see the glue to keep the fringe together has discolored the ends. I hope a ribbon maker can cut new ends and tie new loops. Is it still possible to buy ribbons for old orders?

    I agree that the French legion of honor is not worth spending money on. There, I would rather spend the money on my wife.

    However, I am ready to spend our food budget on the larger orders, if its worthwhile to do and it does not reduce its value.

    Martin
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  7. #6
    ?

    Default Re: Orders and Medals repair

    Very interesting! Thank you for sharing such interesting photos!

    You appear to have illustrated the sash (goes over the shoulder) of the Mare Cruce / Grand Cross of the Romanian Order. Is the length correct for over the shoulder? It is only a bit faded. The "stuff" in the cut edges is likely easy to remove by a doucments or museum specialist (usually it is just cornstarch - one sees this also on documents where a ribbon is part of the stamped wax seal). I would not think too much about doing any cutting.

    Can you measure your cross and your ribbon and its stripes (the sizes are not always being listed consistently, but still ....)?
    Here is a rather good description of the variants of the Order:
    http://koti.mbnet.fi/arisaka/A%20col...20Part%20I.pdf

    In theory, the "ribbon" of the Order was ....
    -- first blue with silver/steel edges (as you have illustrated)
    -- changed in 1932 to the darker blue with single white/silver stripe in the middle (Type 2)
    -- added gold stripes at the edges in wartime
    -- awarded with the Military Virtue ribbon (red with blue edges) as an additional disctinction or difference for battlefield bravery (for the Knight and Officer classes)

    The Order with the monarch's cypher in the center and crowns between the arms is Type 2. The Swords are military division (differentiated in 1938).

    A Mare Cruce Type II is really very rare - only 50 military awards were authorized. It is slightly possible that someone never had the Mare Cruce sash in the revised ribbons styles of 1932 or 1938. Or you could have a wrong sash for a Mare Cruce Type II - which itself might be quite interesting to someone with a Mare Cruce Type 1 (of which only 25 total were authorized).

    Thank you again for the discussion,

    - Frayer
    Last edited by Frayer; 07-18-2010 at 06:12 PM.

  8. #7

    Default Re: Orders and Medals repair

    It is becoming interesting

    You're right, the length fit the shoulder (133cm) It loks like the Grand cross for military 1932-1947. Can it really be true that only 50 were made of this type with sword? I'm still confused abaut the ribbon. Once again thanks for your help.

    Martin
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  9. #8
    ?

    Default Re: Orders and Medals repair

    Well, the cross does indeed appear to be the size of the Mare Cruce Type II (military - with crown and swords, 1938-1847). The only indication that I have found as to the number awarded was that 50 (military) were authorized to be awarded in peacetime in the decree of 1938. In general, the authorized peacetime awards were not completed (about 20% of the 1932 authorization of higher awards was not made), but the limit may have been increased during the war. So, a number of around 50 actual awards could be an estimate.

    There may be a maker's name on the attachment ring. The Type I seem to all have this.

    About the ribbon ....
    Here are Mare Cruce Type I (1881-1932) examples:
    http://www.marksmedals.com/romanian_...cross_sash.JPG
    http://awards.netdialogue.com/Europe...own/CrownI.jpg
    http://100eyes.ro/mediaserver/f/j/a6...cffc09c22_view
    http://www.coins-la-galerie-numismat...ROcat1-202.jpg
    Specification : overall width 100mm, light blue moiré with two 20mm silver/steel stripes located 7mm away from the edges.

    Here are Mare Cruce Type II (civil - from 1932) examples:
    http://awards.netdialogue.com/Europe...wn/CrownI2.jpg
    http://www.forum-numismatic.com/albu...c5da77f62768c7
    Specification : overall width 100mm, blue moiré with one 18.5mm silver/white stripe located in the center.
    For a wartime award, add 7mm gold/yellow stripes at each edge.
    I could not locate an image of a Mare Cruce Type II (military - with crown and swords, 1938-1847), unless we count yours. However, I could not find any indication that the sash would be different.

    Here is a ribbon that claims to be the Military Virtue ribbon for the Mare Cruce Type II (military, wartime bravery):
    http://images3.okr.ro/auctions/2010/...15-700_700.jpg
    I say "claims" because the photo is from a Romanian auction listing (was listed at 370 EUR). But such awards did exist :
    Coroana Romaniei Order with swords Grand Cross class with Virtute Militara ribbon awarded to SS Obergruppenführer Josef ["Sepp"] Dietrich by Royal Decree No. 2020 of 16 July 1942.
    http://magazin.sfatulmedicului.ro/ca...are-Cruce.html

    So, unique elements with your ribbon:
    - color may be just too light when seen in better photos, not faded, even for a Mare Cruce Type 1
    - stripes do not seem to conform to any arrangment that I found as specified for the sash
    - yours appears to have the back all silver/white, and I could not see any others so made.

    For me, I would try to find the list of recipients, if such exists. And ask about the ribbon as you go.
    The list of the Mare Cruce recipients may survive - a Romanian historian or archivist might know. Or maybe someone on the staff of King Mihai - he remains the Grand Master of the Order, and lives (I think) in London.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_of_Romania
    University of Bucharest Special Center "Romania in the 20th Century"
    http://www.unibuc.ro/en/cc_ccisxx_en
    http://www.unibuc.ro/en/catd_hcir_en


    Thank you again for sharing your pieces!
    - Frayer
    Last edited by Frayer; 07-19-2010 at 02:06 AM.

  10. #9

    Default Re: Orders and Medals repair

    Thanks again Frayer

    The confusion is the same, its just on a higher level

    I found pictures of the order on an auction site. Unfortunately, I can now see that I am missing the top ring, so no help there.

    http://www.coins-la-galerie-numismat...0_23-29-08.jpg

    I will continue the search and hope to come up with som explanation. Mabay the sash belongs to an entirely different order, perhaps from greece. I also hope to bring pictures of a successful repair of enamel.

    Latest pictures are of some miniature medals with missing ribbons. Could use a little help with the "Pro Patria" 1914-1918 medal, which I do not know.

    Martin
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  11. #10
    ?

    Default Re: Orders and Medals repair

    Your unique sash may someday prove to be a clue to a specific owner. Awarded late in the war, when the correct ribbon was not available. Ribbon destroyed and the owner had to have some kind of replacement made (in Germany, in Finland, etc.).
    This is why a list of recipients would be good to have. Most will have formal photos taken (they were high ranking) and perhaps one photo will show .... your sash !

    I do not think that the man (with a Chinese name !) in Moravia sold his claimed Military Virtue ribbon. Maybe see if he will sell it - if you want to display with a "known correct" type of ribbon in good condition. The price requested was not much more than having a sash made to order in France or Germany, and the offered one might even be real.

    ===================================

    «PRO PATRIA»
    Österreich 1. Republik (1920-1933), Kreuz der Österreichischen-Erenlegion
    Austria 1st Republic (1920-1933), Cross of the Austrian Honor Legion

    http://www.jemtlandspantbank.se/prod...ullsize%5D.jpg
    http://www.jemtlandspantbank.se/prod...ullsize%5D.jpg
    http://www.sammlerecke.at/orden/images/lrep39.jpg
    http://www.twierdza.art.pl/artykuly/med_honoru.jpg
    http://www.evyznamencizina.ic.cz/evropa/krizrak.jpg

    Cross of the Austrian Legion of Honour
    "This would appear to be a decoration of an ex-service men's organisation. It is listed by Von Prochazka, and a correspondent has sent me a photograph. It consists of a gilt cross patee with straight sides, 40-41mm across, with wide borders to the arms. The central medallion, 12mm, is lettered: pro patria (For the Fatherland), around a small star. A laurel wreath appears between the arms. The rev is plain, except that the medallion is lettered: osterr./1914-1918/ehrenlegion. Prochazka shows the ribbon as 30mm, yellow with 5mm black side stripes, inset 1mm. My correspondent's example has a 37mm ribbon, plain violet, with a metal emblem of the Austrian eagle over the scroll lettered: osterreich."
    http://sammler.ru/index.php?act=Atta...post&id=147786

    Various auctions :
    http://cgi.ebay.it/Orden-Osterrreich...-/260580501042
    http://www.odklepnuto.cz/aukce380383...legion-1914-19
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

    It is a little too close to TR for me to really know much about it, I am sorry. There seems to have been quite some variation in types. Or maybe these are copied with greater and lesser success. I am sorry that I cannot say better about this one.

    - Frayer

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