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Sa/nskk m4/30

Article about: Got this interesting set a few days ago. The buckle is missing a lot of it's silver finish but the markings made it worth picking up. One of the few SA/NSKK buckles marked RZM M/4. The code

  1. #11

    Default

    Quote by yellow12 View Post
    So it is a buckle from the transitional period................
    Boy oh boy!
    M4/30 stands for Berg & Nolte. Before the use of M4 Berg & Nolte used the code,
    which later was M1 (36). Just like that! Same concern.......

    Officially they did not have to re-stamp and old code with a new code. So, the code
    as used before 1935 was 36 and the code as used since 1935 was 30 (actually the
    concern Berg & Nolte held the RZM 36 since September 1933, see company-letter
    enclosed)!!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 04-05-2016 at 06:08 PM.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

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  3. #12

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    Very interesting that it mentions SS
    Ben

  4. #13
    ?

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    Thank for the additional information. I thought it would be something like that.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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  5. #14

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    Quote by Ben Evans View Post
    Very interesting that it mentions SS
    What else? Berg & Nolte did manufacturer nickle-silver buckles as well and
    had the ges. gesch included (article-number 1805/45 mm) and still offered
    these in early 1935.
    The SS did not have yet their own indications and just had become a seperate
    organization in mid-1934, splitted from the SA.

    When one compares the wings for the SA buckles with the 1934/1935 price-
    list from Berg & Nolte one may observe these wings were totally differently styled:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  6. #15

    Default

    Cool set!....
    It's a wasted trip baby. Nobody said nothing about locking horns with no Tigers.



    I'm Spartacus, not really i'm Paul!...

  7. #16
    ?

    Default

    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    What else? Berg & Nolte did manufacturer nickle-silver buckles as well and
    had the ges. gesch included (article-number 1805/45 mm) and still offered
    these in early 1935.
    The SS did not have yet their own indications and just had become a seperate
    organization in mid-1934, splitted from the SA.

    When one compares the wings for the SA buckles with the 1934/1935 price-
    list from Berg & Nolte one may observe these wings were totally differently styled:

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	951286
    Here is my early example, a very different eagle as Wim states.
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  8. #17

    Default

    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    Boy oh boy!
    M4/30 stands for Berg & Nolte. Before the use of M4 Berg & Nolte used the code,
    which later was M1 (36). Just like that! Same concern.......

    Officially they did not have to re-stamp and old code with a new code. So, the code
    as used before 1935 was 36 and the code as used since 1935 was 30 (actually the
    concern Berg & Nolte held the RZM 36 since September 1933, see company-letter
    enclosed)!!

    Click image for larger version. 

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Views:	52 
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ID:	951231
    Hello Wim ,

    that is what i wrote in other words ..........

    RZM 36 and M4/30 is of course both B&N ...........

    Here another example for nickel over brass buckle :

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	951336Click image for larger version. 

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    And here again :

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	951338Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	951339Click image for larger version. 

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    Regards ,
    Markus


    I'm searching for
    Buckles 3.Reich

    special SA/NSKK/NSFK with maker marks


    Link to my collection : http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/album.php?albumid=1175



  9. #18

    Default

    yellow12: In an earlier post you mentioned a "transitional period", but there was no transitional period.
    It was just a progress in developing the RZM structures, between 1931 and 1935. Briefly this period and
    structuring is given for your convenience and for others:

    Already in the spring of 1931 they do speak of a Reichszeugmeisterei, divided into the various district-Zeugmeistereien
    (depots), where political goods could be obtained. In late 1931 it was noted that various insignia and uniform-fittings
    had to be marked with the manufacturers-code, which is the name (logo) or abbreviation, often together with ges. gesch
    (gesetzlich Geschützt and so you see for example O&C ges. gesch. Nothing was said about a specific RZM-code. This
    was so until anyway at least spring 1933.

    April 1, 1933 all the various Zeugmeistereien were re-organized and did not exist anymore. The only official department
    where to purchase was the RZM at Munich. Since May 1933 concerns, manufacturing for the party-organization, had to
    have a permit (Berechtigungsnachweis), valid with August 1 . In the course of the next months things were better
    structured and organized. August 15, 1933 it was listed what was meant with party-uniforms and insignia. A classification-
    code was not given, but the numbers used were the later M1-numbers, for example 36 (Berg & Nolte).

    June 1, 1934 the Mitteilungsblatt der RZM was published for the first time. About this time the specific codes, the
    classifications as MA (Metallwarenhersteller), UE (Uniformeffektenhersteller) and KH (Koppelschlosshersteller)
    came into being. These classifications were only used for a short period of time, as already in March 1935 the M-codes
    came into being. The change-over for the new code-system took place since early summer and the course of 1935, as it
    was allowed to sell first the old stocks.

    RZM-tags were already available for a while and with manufacturers orders it was said the RZM codes had to be included
    (das Schutzzeichen der RZM as well as the Berechtigungsnummer des betreffenden Herstellers ist eingeprägt).
    Note this is said anyway in June 1934. So from about this date for example buckles were including the KH -code
    and number (the later M4) or UE-code and number (the later M5 with their specific numbers).

    This information largely is generated from actual and old sources like the "Verordnungsblatt der Reichsleitung der NSDAP"
    and the well-known "Mitteilungsblatt der Reichszeugmeisterei". Post-war information is not consulted!!
    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 04-06-2016 at 09:19 AM.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  10. #19

    Default

    Fantastic info Wim, I am going to copy this info into a new sticky thread so its ready and available, outstanding referencing info and many thanks
    Ben

  11. #20

    Default

    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    yellow12: In an earlier post you mentioned a "transitional period", but there was no transitional period.
    It was just a progress in developing the RZM structures, between 1931 and 1935. Briefly this period and
    structuring is given for your convenience and for others:

    Already in the spring of 1931 they do speak of a Reichszeugmeisterei, divided into the various district-Zeugmeistereien
    (depots), where political goods could be obtained. In late 1931 it was noted that various insignia and uniform-fittings
    had to be marked with the manufacturers-code, which is the name (logo) or abbreviation, often together with ges. gesch
    (gesetzlich Geschützt and so you see for example O&C ges. gesch. Nothing was said about a specific RZM-code. This
    was so until anyway at least spring 1933.

    April 1, 1933 all the various Zeugmeistereien were re-organized and did not exist anymore. The only official department
    where to purchase was the RZM at Munich. Since May 1933 concerns, manufacturing for the party-organization, had to
    have a permit (Berechtigungsnachweis), valid with August 1 . In the course of the next months things were better
    structured and organized. August 15, 1933 it was listed what was meant with party-uniforms and insignia. A classification-
    code was not given, but the numbers used were the later M1-numbers, for example 36 (Berg & Nolte).

    June 1, 1934 the Mitteilungsblatt der RZM was published for the first time. About this time the specific codes, the
    classifications as MA (Metallwarenhersteller), UE (Uniformeffektenhersteller) and KH (Koppelschlosshersteller)
    came into being. These classifications were only used for a short period of time, as already in March 1935 the M-codes
    came into being. The change-over for the new code-system took place since early summer and the course of 1935, as it
    was allowed to sell first the old stocks.

    RZM-tags were already available for a while and with manufacturers orders it was said the RZM codes had to be included
    (das Schutzzeichen der RZM as well as the Berechtigungsnummer des betreffenden Herstellers ist eingeprägt).
    Note this is said anyway in June 1934. So from about this date for example buckles were including the KH -code
    and number (the later M4) or UE-code and number (the later M5 with their specific numbers).

    This information largely is generated from actual and old sources like the "Verordnungsblatt der Reichsleitung der NSDAP"
    and the well-known "Mitteilungsblatt der Reichszeugmeisterei". Post-war information is not consulted!!
    Hello Wim ,

    thanks for is extremely informativ post .

    That is what i would say with transitional period . Just my english is not so developed in detail......sorry
    Regards ,
    Markus


    I'm searching for
    Buckles 3.Reich

    special SA/NSKK/NSFK with maker marks


    Link to my collection : http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/album.php?albumid=1175



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