Become our sponsor and display your banner here
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11

Special 1-Piece Steel SA with Overhoff Design: Thoughts?

Article about: Steel Overhoff SA collection...

  1. #1

    Default Special 1-Piece Steel SA with Overhoff Design: Thoughts?

    Hello all,

    I would like to share this recent acquisition with you all and get members thoughts and opinions. This is to me a very unique and somewhat enigmatic new piece.

    When initially purchasing this buckle online it had caught my eye as odd as I thought it was an unmarked brass example. This was something I had not seen before with this design of eagle and swastika, which is well known and well documented as by Overhoff. Upon receiving the buckle in hand, however, it is in fact constructed of steel. This is, of course, not the norm for this specific design and the design appears an exact match to the documented brass and nickel silver examples.

    Upon examining this piece in hand and with regard to the finish, I have been leaning towards the assessment that this is a period fire gilt finish that has darkened/toned with age. Of course I could be wrong here, but it is the somewhat smooth and uniform manner in which the finish has worn on the high points that makes me think this whereas I believe a plated buckle might have a more flaked appearance.

    I have shared this buckle with David who has yet to see this design constructed in steel and with this type of finish. David has already very kindly offered me some of his thoughts on this SA, including the speculation that the golden finish might be a very light plating of brass and then finished and protected with a gilding. However, the question of whether it is fire gilding or gilded steel remains elusive.

    So the next obvious questions after the particulars of the construction are why? or what for? What would the significance of this variant be? Being a relative novice here, I am at a loss. As David has pointed out, there is a huge difference in die stamping brass against steel in relation to the working life of the tools and why should Overhoff stamp in steel when brass was so readily available? David has speculated that this could be an experimental piece in relation to possible long-term cost cutting efforts...stamping in steel and then factory finishing in either yellow or white.

    For me this has been a very special and exciting find with enigmatic and elusive features that would make for some excellent discussion here on the forum. Any and all thoughts on this recent addition to my collection are most welcome and anxiously anticipated.

    Best to you all,
    Adam
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

Name:	SA 1.jpg 
Views:	75 
Size:	264.5 KB 
ID:	171110   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC03050.jpg 
Views:	124 
Size:	266.8 KB 
ID:	171112  

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	SA 1, Pic 2.jpg 
Views:	67 
Size:	263.9 KB 
ID:	171111   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC03053.jpg 
Views:	56 
Size:	249.8 KB 
ID:	171115  

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC03055.jpg 
Views:	135 
Size:	246.5 KB 
ID:	171114  

  2. # ADS
    Circuit advertisement
    Join Date
    Always
    Location
    Advertising world
    Age
    2010
    P
    Many
     

  3. #2

    Default Re: Special 1-Piece Steel SA with Overhoff Design: Thoughts?

    Adam.

    This is a very strange buckle. I have never run across an SA constructed in steel. As far a the fire gilding is concerned , that is certainly a possiblity. I have a one piece "Front Heil" buckle with fire gilding but the buckle of course in brass. I am not a metalurgist but if it is steel I believe it would need to be copper plated first before brass plating it. Maybe someone else can chime in on this.

    Bill

  4. #3

    Default Re: Special 1-Piece Steel SA with Overhoff Design: Thoughts?

    Dear Adam and Bill

    Perhaps I may add a new dimension to this very special and potentially important SA buckle.

    May I suggest that perhaps not Overhoff, although by a casual glance, perhaps so?

    Attached is a photo merge of three buckles. Left flanking is Adam's superb example and right flanking is a brass example that I hold. Similar I think. In the middle is an Overhoff (marked) SA and perhaps I am correct in suggesting that jolly similar, although clearly not the same.

    A remarkable buckle Adam and let us wait for others to comment.

    Regards,

    David
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1.jpg 
Views:	72 
Size:	165.7 KB 
ID:	171269  

  5. #4

    Default Re: Special 1-Piece Steel SA with Overhoff Design: Thoughts?

    Dear David and Bill

    Thank you for the comments and David for your comparative roundel examples. I must admit that I am less technologically saavy than most of my generation and uncertain as to how to "line up" images in one picture as David has so nicely done.

    Here are two of my other examples, first an RZM M4/27 marked 1-piece nickel example with what appears to be the exact same design as the steel SA. Second is my 2-piece unmarked brass-on-brass Overhoff example with the same roundel as seen on David's middle example.

    Looking forward to more thoughts anyone might have!

    Best,
    Adam
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC03201.jpg 
Views:	76 
Size:	269.5 KB 
ID:	171288   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC03203.jpg 
Views:	64 
Size:	263.1 KB 
ID:	171287  


  6. #5

    Default Re: Special 1-Piece Steel SA with Overhoff Design: Thoughts?

    There is another steel SA on the WA forum w/an O&C tag on it. I am not overly suspect of these things but I have to say this raises some red flags. A buckle that has never been seen before and now to see two within one week??? The one on WA is bright steel but w/the same assembly as yours Adam I might add-where did you get this buckle?? I certainly hope I am wrong on this.

    Bill

  7. #6

    Default Re: Special 1-Piece Steel SA with Overhoff Design: Thoughts?

    Hello Bill

    I have now also seen the thread on WA with the other steel, Overhoff tagged SA. I believe yellow12 (Markus) posted this example after my messaging him for his opinion as an SA collector. I have sent him another message and also replied to his thread in an appeal for any further information or thoughts he has on these. Hopefully, with his permission, we may also post his example here.

    I purchased mine from the Manions auction site. This is all very interesting and enigmatic but I must say I am personally not suspicious. In hand this buckle rings very true and if I may say so as someone with much less experience. We shall see and more shall hopefully be revealed!

    Best,
    Adam
    Last edited by aechols83; 01-18-2011 at 10:17 PM.

  8. #7

    Default Re: Special 1-Piece Steel SA with Overhoff Design: Thoughts?

    Hello Gentlemen

    I have yet to get explicit consent to share images of the other steel SA in question. Perhaps it is appropriate and will suffice to simply provide a link to the other forum's thread where both examples are shown:

    SA Overhoff steel buckle - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums

    As we can see it is his opinion that these are both period steel SA's by Overhoff, with my example having a brass coating. Looking forward to any and all thoughts and further discussion

    Best,
    Adam

  9. #8

    Default Re: Special 1-Piece Steel SA with Overhoff Design: Thoughts?

    Hello All,

    Here are two other fully magnetic "white" or nickel coated steel SA's that I recently picked up and to add to this thread. The first is the Overhoff RZM M4/27 marked example also held by yellow12 (shown in the above link) and which is the counterpart to the unmarked "yellow" coated example that I originally posted. Second is an unmarked piece with a well-known design that I believe I have only seen before as nickel over brass.

    In discussing these steel SA's with David it would seem that the "white" coated variety, while not common, are at least previously documented as opposed to the "yellow" coated variety. The question of what constitutes this "yellow" or "golden" coating is, I think, still a question as it has been proposed to be a very light plating of brass, finished and protected with a gilding and also more simply as "brass coated."

    It seems to me that perhaps the reason there are fewer documented examples (of either variety) might in part be that some collectors are unaware of the underlying metal and have not considered applying a magnet test to their buckles. As such, I'd like to invite interested SA collectors to consider this and post any steel SA's you might have here in this thread.

    Of course, any further thoughts, comments or opinions would be most welcome

    Best to you all,
    Adam
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC03344.jpg 
Views:	63 
Size:	258.3 KB 
ID:	177131   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC03345.jpg 
Views:	90 
Size:	266.2 KB 
ID:	177130  

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC03346.jpg 
Views:	60 
Size:	262.4 KB 
ID:	177132  

  10. #9

    Default Re: Special 1-Piece Steel SA with Overhoff Design: Thoughts?

    Unmarked nickel over steel example...
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC03348.jpg 
Views:	74 
Size:	267.0 KB 
ID:	177134   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC03349.jpg 
Views:	66 
Size:	268.7 KB 
ID:	177133  


  11. #10

    Default Re: Special 1-Piece Steel SA with Overhoff Design: Thoughts?

    Hello All,

    Bumping this thread with a newly acquired example of the steel Overhoff SA buckle and also some merged images of my very small sub-collection of such buckles.

    In addition to a base of steel, this most recent SA is endowed with the extra special feature of a rare wide catch arrangement. While footed catches are regularly found on SA buckles and while Overhoff certainly used this type of catch arrangement on other buckles, it is not the standard or expected catch for this particular SA which seems to invariably employ the “C” catch.

    These steel SA’s appear to be “coated” by a process of electroplating although it is not certain if the “yellow” examples that I hold are in fact brass. Additionally the nickel over steel types by Overhoff and others seem to be more common relative to the yellow/brassy variety. I have so far documented only one other maker that produced a steel SA with the latter finishing and this was a sunwheel example by Steinhauer & Luck.

    The reason for these buckles being produced remains elusive. As David has previously suggested to me, perhaps these are the result of Overhoff (and it would appear others) being experimental as a long-term cost saving strategy as steel was less expensive at the time. It seems hard to say how the cost factor would adjust post finishing though. David has also offered the tentative speculation that the steel SA buckles that I hold are perhaps the last that Overhoff produced before the SA box buckle was prohibited as a regulation item.

    In my eyes these are a very interesting and thought-provoking type of buckle!

    Best,
    Adam
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC03656.jpg 
Views:	58 
Size:	263.3 KB 
ID:	196776   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC03658.jpg 
Views:	68 
Size:	264.6 KB 
ID:	196775  

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC03666.jpg 
Views:	70 
Size:	257.0 KB 
ID:	196777  

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. S.S. - Variant Design

    In SS Buckles
    12-27-2010, 01:07 AM
  2. 09-01-2010, 11:19 PM
  3. 05-04-2010, 03:52 AM
  4. M16 steel melmet with special camo

    In Imperial Germany and Austro-Hungary
    01-19-2010, 10:12 PM
  5. by design or ....................... ?

    In SS Uniforms and insignia
    08-19-2009, 10:23 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •