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Almost black grip... NSKK Dienstdolch ?

Article about: Thanks for all the input gents.... and it was nice meeting you this weekend Steve!!

  1. #11
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    Default re: Almost black grip... NSKK Dienstdolch ?

    Thanks for all the input gents.... and it was nice meeting you this weekend Steve!!

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  3. #12

    Default re: Almost black grip... NSKK Dienstdolch ?

    Quote by Eric Zentner View Post
    Marine SA dagger?

    Eric
    My thoughts aswell

    - - Updated - -

    Quote by gerrit View Post
    I think its a nice early nickel one!

    you have to figger out if its the manufactory lacquer ( finish to prevent the wood)) or that the black remains on the grip (which are still traces left) are traces of black paint.
    If it has still traces of black paint then it would prop. have been a Marine SA dagger.
    If its the lacquer to prevent the wood, then its a normal NSKK dagger.
    Either way i like this great piece

    Cheers,
    Ger
    Ger, i read somwhere that they sometimes painted the grip when they painted the scabard black?? has anyone else heard of this??
    cheers Ronnie

  4. #13

    Default re: Almost black grip... NSKK Dienstdolch ?

    Im looking at what seems to be traces of Laquer on the grip as the grip looks to have been period painted. Could this possibly be a factory made special grip? You can see on the wood where it has aged a little exposing some of the wood grain. Aesculap early SA daggers are a great reference concerning laquer finishes. Aesculap finished their grips heavily. I myself can not find enough evidence that would support a standard NSKK man went over board and painted the whole dagger and wiped off the excess paint from the fittings and eagle. Some say it could be a standard NSKK em and others say Marine SA.
    Because of the traces of Laquer on the grip I am leaning more to a Marine SA. Of special note Herder is a maker of this type of dagger with a commonly seen Nrh Gruppe mark. Tough subject!! and still leaves the issue wide open for discussion. Thanks Bob for your input,, looking forward to your photo.
    here is a link from 2008 from one of our Moderators Horst. He also shows a Marine SA
    http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/dagger...arine-sa-2684/

  5. #14

    Default re: Almost black grip... NSKK Dienstdolch ?

    Quote by 85ronnies View Post
    My thoughts aswell

    - - Updated - -



    Ger, i read somwhere that they sometimes painted the grip when they painted the scabard black?? has anyone else heard of this??
    cheers Ronnie
    Ronnie-
    All of the finishing would have been done at the factory before the daggers were issued. When the members of the Motor SA were incorporated in to the NSKK, these men had to change the color of their scabbard from brown to black. In most cases, they painted them by themselves. That is why some daggers are found with a sloppy black paint finish. Many collectors have wrongly thought that all daggers found with repainted scabbards were done by dealers or collectors. Many years ago, I had such a dagger with provenance. It was purchased from the son of the original owner along with his medals from both wars and a wonderful early photo album with ticket stubs and photos of Hitler giving speeches in the 1920's. The man had bee Motor SA and was incorporated like all other Motor SA men in to the NSKK.
    BOB

    LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.

  6. #15

    Default re: Almost black grip... NSKK Dienstdolch ?

    For what it's worth, since the blade has been seriously polished, I found myself wondering first off, if the grip hadn't been treated with some sort of wood oil process as a preservative. The grips may have simply absorbed the oiling and darkened. The lower portion of the wood would still retain it's shininess as it rarely comes in contact with the wearer's hand. Has this ever been disassembled to look at the ends of the wood beneath the guards? Unless, of course, it might have been treated While taken apart, in which case, the end wood's appearance wouldn't tell much.
    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  7. #16

    Default re: Almost black grip... NSKK Dienstdolch ?

    Quote by BOB COLEMAN View Post
    Ronnie-
    All of the finishing would have been done at the factory before the daggers were issued. When the members of the Motor SA were incorporated in to the NSKK, these men had to change the color of their scabbard from brown to black. In most cases, they painted them by themselves. That is why some daggers are found with a sloppy black paint finish. Many collectors have wrongly thought that all daggers found with repainted scabbards were done by dealers or collectors. Many years ago, I had such a dagger with provenance. It was purchased from the son of the original owner along with his medals from both wars and a wonderful early photo album with ticket stubs and photos of Hitler giving speeches in the 1920's. The man had bee Motor SA and was incorporated like all other Motor SA men in to the NSKK.


    Cheers Bob , i know the guys painted thm themselv's but what i meant was, i have read that when they painted the scabbards black, some of them also painted the "grip" also. Dont know why, or if it is true?? hope i have explained myself properly now
    cheers Ronnie

  8. #17

    Default re: Almost black grip... NSKK Dienstdolch ?

    Hi Ronnie-
    I have never heard this before so there is no way I can comment on it one way or another. Some of this verbal legend in collecting is true and some not so much.
    Here is the factory refinished Rohm SA Marine dagger I have had since the mid 1980's. I have a new camera and am still working at mastering it. Sorry if the pics are not up to snuff.
    The scabbard is anodized. The origtinal finish on the handle appears to be more of a stain than paint. The black survived mainly at the top and bottom of the grip where it was not subject to handling.





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    BOB

    LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.

  9. #18

    Default re: Almost black grip... NSKK Dienstdolch ?

    Cheers Bob is there any trace of guilt on the scabbard or fittings on the dagger you show?
    cheers Ronnie

  10. #19

    Default re: Almost black grip... NSKK Dienstdolch ?

    Quote by 85ronnies View Post
    Cheers Bob is there any trace of guilt on the scabbard or fittings on the dagger you show?
    cheers Ronnie
    No. The fittings are typical early SA nickle silver. These daggers are so obscure, much of the information on them is only verbal lore. I have yet to see any dagger book deal in detail with the SA Marine dagger. It is possible that more than one pattern evolved from the first daggers, of which mine would certainly have been being a Rohm dagger.
    BOB

    LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.

  11. #20
    ?

    Default re: Almost black grip... NSKK Dienstdolch ?

    Marine SA,s are a rare find and not often in a blade collection - heres mine the scabbard is black leather covered ,early maker mark is C.D. Schaaff,Solingen, emblem is a fisherman with a pipe. In addition to the dagger I was lucky to also get the owners NSDAP membership book with a picture of him in his SA Marine tunic -

    Horst

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    "He who hesitates is lost - is not only lost but miles from the next exit"

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