Chained NSKK dagger

[stuka f]

I had one before, so I couldn't resist this one.
I am using seller's pictures.
Hope to get it this week.

[gerrit]

Hi Kris,

i most admit i have never seen a chain that lost all of its plating and having a scabbard with less wear and no rust, to me thats odd.
Correct me if im wrong but this config looks like an early nickel version and then being presented in mid 1938?
I hope good pics will sort it out, as for know im not totally convinced that this one is all correct.
Looking forward to good pictures.

Regards
Ger

[Larry C]

Looking forward to it Kris .

Regards Larry

[stuka f]

Went to fetch it today.
Good daylight is scarce now, so forgive for the pic's, only made a few.
All parts are magnetic, NSKK stamped chain part sits near the scabbard, RZM stamped chain part near the hook.

[Larry C]

Hi Kris...who is the producer of the dagger is the first question and the answer will be related to the Chain assembly.

I feel the Chain was added to the dagger as it is supposed to represent a rare Marine NSKK Chain...but the fittings on the dagger are not.
I do see some traces of gold wash left on a few areas..yet in some areas the lighting is giving many different effects to the Chain.

I am curious of the darkening around the D shaped link holes. This is not a combination that may have been sanctioned by the NSKK but IMO was added to this dagger post war or recently. The chain does appear to be authentic ..but Im cautious due to the varied lighting in the photos provided.

Who is the producer?
More thoughts and opinions welcomed.

Regards Larry

[stuka f]

Hi Larry, thanks for your time.
the dagger comes from a house clearing at a auction house I am often dealing with, and not specialized in militaria.
Sorry I didn't concentrate on the dagger... it is a E. P. & S. - Solingen.
I am adding a sellers pic.
cheers
Kris

[gerrit]

Ohh boy....
Kris i dont know where to start properly, but i do not like what i see.
IMO a fake chain, the RZM mark isnt right, as are the letters on the other link do not fit the known originals.

then the traces of goldwash....well looking at the dedication its for sure not a marine dedicated one, so that is a complete mis fit also.
The dagger should be an early pack but the crossguard are the 1938 up alu version?
The fit guard to throat is off.
To me this is a total parts build dagger, and for sure did not leave the factory this way.
That it came from a Household, well dont they all?
Buy daggers , not the tales.
Then the overall appeareance what ALWAYS should be your guide......i Always trust my gut feeling when i look at a dagger, the first impression to me is so important....is it love at first sight?

Sorry Kris but imo this one is no good.
As Elvis sung once...return to sender....

Ger

Just compare it with a Pack NSKK chained i owned a couple of times
https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/sa-di...-e-p-s-194508/

then look at the chain links and compare, the RZM mark is very important as it is very small the fakes hardly ever stand the test to an Original.

[stuka f]

hey Gerrit,
thanks for your input.
Gut feeling is what drives me generally, also with this dagger.
And no "story" bought here...it are just facts; I got it from a auction house that empty houses....
Don't know if this could seems like a "fairy tell" but to me it is what I do on a daily base.
Don't get me wrong I am not discussing your knowledge on daggers here!!
And I am also not getting a "gem" every time, I walk in to auction houses ;-)


cheers
Kris

[Larry C]

With these NSKK Chained Leaders daggers ..and how much they have been messed with over the years .. one issue is one issue too many.

The last pic you provided I agree with Gerrit ..is these guards are not Pack guard at all and are Thuringia produced by who knows ...the accent grooves are shallow on this example.
One glimmer of light the blade appears to have been a Rohm blade at one time,,which is correct for an Early Ernst Pack & Sohn dagger.

Sadly this is another dagger type I shy away from.....unless it comes from a reputable source. Auction houses are as good as what they do.., receive estate clean outs and move it forsale. They are limited in their knowledge unless there happens to be upon rarity someone knows what they are looking at.

1 point of observation ..take notice to the amount of wear on the scabbard paint and compare it to the condition of the fittings and chain itself. The common denominator is not equal and appears the scabbard has been through a field of bushes and thorns.

I would treat these NSKK leader daggers the same as Teno officer daggers with great caution and deeper research for any future acquisitions.

Regards Larry

[stuka f]

Don't get me wrong here!!
I don't say you guy's ain't right, but things are what they are....and allow me a reply.
About auction houses not always knowing what they do, I agree, and I could tell you a thousands story's about that.
I just happened to me again not more then a year ago, when a object (I even posted it here on the forum!), was misjudged (I am talking seriously misjudged!!) by the auction experts and even when brought up for sale no one gave a real bid (all experts in the room!!)...good for me because I got it cheap! Just by gut feeling.
And I am no expert either. But then again saw other well know experts going down on the same object. I finally sold it for big money in a US auction house.
Not saying this for your guy's judgement on the dagger!! Just to tell you my experience with auction houses since 1973.

And about " the amount of wear on the scabbard paint" check the picture!
I have been begging, shouting, for all those years.....to ask not to use stickers on objects; it takes of paint, wear, patina ...
Again not saying this to proof you are wrong, just showing what happens.