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early SA Dagger with inscription on scabbard.

Article about: I may be wrong but is not usual to find nickel fittongs and gau mark on a rzm marked dagger...isn t it?

  1. #11

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    I may be wrong but is not usual to find nickel fittongs and gau mark on a rzm marked dagger...isn t it?

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  3. #12

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    No, on early examples.

  4. #13

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    Nickel "Plated" can be found on mid to late period examples...but with Arthur Schuttlehoffer RZM M7/13 it was mostly silver plated. On some examples lifting of plating can be seen.

    Solid Nickel was found on Early to mid period..mostly. Regards Larry

    I would like to see better photos overall at Deans convenience..especially the tang nut and the top of the crossguard. Also the blade shoulder fit to the lower crossguard. The previous owner having this since the 1960s does not dispel the possibility as a post war put together.
    Westfalia "Wf" is not a known Gruppe mark to this maker..but I will follow up with some cross referencing tonight when I get home.

    Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  5. #14
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    Ok Dean here are my 2 cents:
    The blade does not belong to the rest.
    The dagger is an early one, by hardware and inscription.
    The blade should had the ASSO logo instead of the late war RZM code.
    Second is that this grip has a thick lacquer like often seen on the Haco Berlin daggers.
    ASSO is not known for it as far as i know.

    i will not comment on the inscription, but best i can see is an early dagger with a swapped RZM blade.

    Regards,
    Ger

  6. #15

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    There is no documentation outside of what I cross referenced in my reference library other than what has been posted..in the Producers named to Gruppe marks list in this forum.

    Gruppe marks named to Arthur Schuttlehoffer are "Om" "Ns" "S"
    RZM permit was amazingly obtained early on 10/01/1934
    Crossguard internal markings for this early maker if the guards belonged to the Arthur Schuttlehoffer are F & B and the widely known P&A

    Im with Gerrit..blade may have been swapped out. Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  7. #16
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    Thanks for your feedback, gentlemen.
    The owner of the dagger came by with it today and I took more pictures ..the crossgaurds are marked , "O V". The tang is marked either , "P" or "d" , I'm not sure which. The blade shoulders are a perfect match, as well as the wood grip.
    Here are some images I took of it.
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  8. #17

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    The bad news is..it is a mixed bag of parts from different time periods..and is hard to prove if this was thrown together to make production numbers which is a hard sell..we do see a stray fitting once in a while..but specifically for Arthur Schuttlehoffer RZM M7/13..all their fittings were consistent with each other when late period produced.

    The good news is ..that all the parts and fittings are authentic,,..which I find impressive is the crossguard to grip fit very tight. The marked cross guards "OV" which are very rare indeed...were supplied to Ernst Pack & Sohn and Gottlieb Hammesfahr..these guards were sub contracted upon supply and demand..as mostly EP&S used a few most commonly P&A Piel and Adey.

    The tang marking "P"..which is common.. I will have to post information later on as I dont have all of my tang reference producers with me at this time.

    The etch I can not explain..as if it is dated correctly should represent ...June 11 1934..a couple of weeks before Ernst Rohms demise.
    IMO the scabbard is a repaint..over an early scabbard..as the fittings appear also to be the nickel type..and consistent is the patina of all the fittings.
    The screw on the upper fitting is a later replacement..and is the plated type.

    The scabbard throat has been replaced..as seen in photos # 4 and #9..which would explain the missing screw...and the discoloration. If this dagger remained in the state its in..since 1960 and the throat lip has not had any patina added for the last 50 yrs..then it is a later plated type. Plated type fittings do not get the same patina results as early Nickel....you cant hide a fat person behind a pencil ...Nickel patinas quicker within a few years upon environmental circumstances.

    This may be IMO a V-day put together if this remained un seen since 1960. I like the "OV" guards very much Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  9. #18
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    Thank you very much for your help as always, Larry . Your opinion is very respected in this area of research, IMO. I have some additional photos to share, if it helps any further.
    Many thanks,
    Dean.
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  10. #19
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    Also, I agree with the opinion that the scabbard is a repainted early anodized version. Good eye, seeing the missing fitting screw! I have a feeling you are correct regarding the blade having been a post V-day replacement. The darkness of the blade etching has been rubbed off probably due to over polishing or perhaps it was unfinished in the factory? As I said, the parts all seem to fit perfectly together, which is nice considering the high likeliness it was put together.
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  11. #20
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    Hey fellas, just curious...
    What would you guys pay for this dagger on a good day? The owner is willing to sell it but he wants a reasonable offer. What do you guys think its worth?
    Thanks,
    Dean.

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