Honor S.A Dagger.. good??

[ceies]

hello again
good one? and about how much it's worth becouse i cant find similar to compare...
thank you
jacob

[Larry C]

Uhmmmmmmmm...........this shows some promise but I will need alot of eyes on this one and research. What has me stumped is the all early period fittings with a Late period blade and I am almost sure Eickhorn did not produce 1939 blades with the squirrel logo. Such ornate work on the crossguards but yet the familair name of Max Lehmann is lacking in defined engraving. I am at work at the moment and do not have access to any of my reference material.

Jacob where did you get this photo? and I can not put a price on this type dagger until some of the collecting members here can dig into this. Im not liking the all early fittings with a possible repro Late Rzm Blade...... Thoughts?

[Larry C]

Here is a small bio on Max Lehmann, by an author named Bruce Campbelland his book.."The SA Generals and The Rise of Nazism, Lexington, 2004, pp. 64f.

Lehmann was the son of a burner. After attending elementary school he completed a commercial apprenticeship. In addition to this, he attended trade school and later a special school for textile industry .

As a participant in World War Lehmann lost an eye. He also received the Iron Cross 2nd Class .

At the time of the Weimar Republic Lehmann worked as a textile manufacturer. Between 1918 and 1930, Lehmann was, unusually for a man of his later career to any political or military organization. In September 1930, he finally joined the NSDAP in. In this he first took local administrative duties as coordinator of Nazi Factory Cells Organization true.

In October 1930 Lehmann was also in the SA occurred. In this, he served first as paymaster with the rank of SA-Sturmbannführer. He then rose steadily on by functions as adjutant took over and then as a staff leader of a subgroup. In July 1932, he was eventually promoted to SA-Standartenführer and entrusted with the command of a SA Standard.

In 1933, Lehmann took over the leadership of SA Brigade, which he retained until 1937. From 1933 to 1937 he also sat on the city council of Cottbus . In 1937 he became a full-time SA leaders in the Supreme SA Leadership , where he was head of the department "Organization and use." In this position, he was on 10 April 1938 the SA brigade leader and 30 January 1940 promoted to SA group leader. Lehmann's services within the SA Campbell looks especially in the administrative area.
At the Reichstag elections of April 1938 Lehmann ran unsuccessfully on the "List of the leader of the Greater German Reichstag" as a member of the Nazi Reichstag .
1944 Lehmann was placed on the inactive list SA leader, probably because at that time he returned to his business activities.

Now that we know who the SA Mann is,,,we need to authenticate this dagger,,mainly looking into the engraving on the crossguards.
I am hopeful for many comments and much researched input. Dont sit on a fence....jump in on this Regards Larry

[Wagriff]

Just some quick observations for now, until I can do some deeper looking into this one: 1. Why are the sheath fittings not engraved? Does this sheath even belong with this dagger? Is that why the leather pad was installed to make a better fit for a mismatched sheath? 2. The engraving on the guards looks crude and soft. If a man was going to enhance his dagger, I would have expected to see a much higher sample of engraving. 3. For an honor dagger, the grip wood fit is not very well done-particularly at the top fitting. 4. Most SA Honor daggers I've seen had Damascus blades with gold lettering and leather covered sheaths, so if this Is a legitimate dagger, I doubt very much if it is an Honor dagger, but more possibly a privately enhanced piece. 5. The wood on the grip shows very little actual wear-even under the retaining strap but the checkering is very finely done-most likely by hand. 6. The leather pad does not look like it has been there 74 years. I'd like to see what is beneath it-is it covering a gap between the blade and the guard, for example?
The engraving does not resemble anything that I can ever recall seeing or examining. It does not look at all, for example, like the SA High Leader engraved dagger's engraving work. This certainly would not have been factory done, but rather seems to be privately enhanced-if that is a legitimate dagger. There is no inscription on the blade, which I would have expected to see also.

The 1939 Eickhorn Squirrel Transitional blade is fine. You do see them once in a great while, such as this piece that we had here shown awhile ago:
Transitional Eickhorn SA Dienst dolch

[Larry C]

Thanks Willaim for the follow up on the logo..but still puzzling is the many points made and the late blade. We got some homework to do.

[Wagriff]

Lehmann may have either given himself a gift of tarting up his dagger when he was promoted in the beginning of 1940 to Group Leader or else his friends/family may have had it done. Either way, the engraving was a lousy job. The blade, on the other hand, may once have Had a fancy blade installed but saved by Lehmann after the war? Who knows, but a 1939 blade would tie in well with his 1940 rise in rank.

I am leaning towards the sheath being a replacement also-possibly post war. This one just does not fit well and it definitely does not match in decoration at all. It looks to be a simple run of the mill sheath and to see it on a Group Leaders dagger that has had all the trouble of enhancing it done to it seems incongruous, to say the least. The guards, on the otherhand, almost look to be actual Silver, as they are distinctly different in color from the sheath fittings and blade. I Do like the hand checkering of the grip.

[Frogprince]

Overall I agree with a lot of what William said, and it was quite a while back, but I used to see comparable daggers at shows where some of the better done examples were attributed by the old timers to the old school postwar gun makers in Liege who really did some nice work. With some of the later less skilled examples domestically (or possibly Europe) from apprentices or amateurs trying to learn the trade who were looking to pick up “a little extra after hours pocket change”. With the latest “rage” among some collectors now - the hammer and a nail “punch engraving” with improper use of the German language, Gau marks from other districts than the supposed reason for an inscription, and other faults.

And while I ordinarily don’t like to pull apart daggers that seem to have been together since before the end of the war. I would have no feeling of guilt about taking this one apart to see just how it was put together from whatever source or sources were used. All of which is my trying to express my personal sense of this dagger looking to me like a parts piece. That at some point had a heavy duty application of some “lipstick” (the added decorative work) to try and make it more valuable. Fred

[davejb]

I attempted to relate this to a known fully authenticated piece , i refer to the ERWIN LINDEMANN SPECIAL SA PRESENTATION DAGGER which describes the features as follows ,,' The outstanding features include an obverse and reverse checkered grip , a rich deep brown leather covered scabbard,and beautifully appointed hilt and scabbard fittings bearing the finest single example of oak leaf engraving this author has examined to date. A four line presentation to STANDARTENFUHRER LINDEMANN is engraved on the reverse upper scabbard fitting which reads Standartenfuhrer ERWIN LINDEMANN
ZUM JAHRESWECHSEL 1933-1934
SA GRUPPE SACHSEN'
The blade is a standard SA blade bearing the Carl Grah trademark on the reverse ricasso ' the information listed comes from Collecting the edged weapons of the Third Reich volume IV by LTC . Thomas M Johnson , i dont know if this will give any insight into the one posted but it does seem to emphasise the high degree of workmanship and detail associated with type of dagger

[Walkwolf]

The type of engraving and checkering on this dagger is similar,
if not exactly like what you would see on a firearm. From the
pics I've seen of what were purported to be genuine
SA Honour daggers - and there aren't that many,
all the grips were plain.

I agree with William, in that the engraving and checkering
looks added - 'Privately enhanced" - but when ?

The fact that the scabbard is untouched and in rather
commonly worn condition, my guess on this one
is that it's a post-war embellished piece.........

[gerrit]

Larry the blade is Ok, eickhorn made them, just see one of my latest post: eickhorn transitional,
it has a similar blade.
its combo with a anodized scabbard is a no go.

my 2cents:
this one is a mixed of old and new parts put together with handcrafted postwar engravings.
No leather covered sheath, no damast blade with the golden logo's etc.
bufferpad on a honour dagger, man the maker would have been shot after deleiverance of the dagger
I agree with William and Fred its a fake.

Larry here's my 1939 blade