Need help with 2 SA daggers

srh11293 · 06-10-2010, 01:11 AM

Few days ago I acquired (i.e. part of a larger trade) 2 sa daggers. Now, I know nothing about them, except some basics I picked up from the internet.

I will probably sell one and keep the other one. The problem is that I do not know which one is worth keeping and which one I should sell

Here's what I learned:
Dagger 1: Solid Nickel cross guards, eagle, and scabbard pieces; maker: E P&S; gau: Nrh; nice blade; wood does not fit perfectly to the upper cross guards

Dagger 2: Aluminum cross guards and eagle; Nickel scabbard fittings; Maker: Anton Wingen Jr; no gau marks; blade has noticeable pitting

Neither have marks on the inside of the cross guards (that I was able to find).

Questions:
1) What are the Rohm daggers (and how do I know if I have one - assuming it was well grounded off)?
2) As far as I learned, aluminum fittings only appear on the later SA daggers. Since mine does not have RMZ markings, I assume it's an early one. Then how can the cross guards be explained?
3) How do I tell if the scabbard is 'painted' or 'anodized'?
4) Anton Wingen dagger is about 1/4 inch longer then the EP&S dagger (scabbard is also a little bit longer) - I thought they all should be identical to each other.
5) SA barge on the EP&S handle looks black, not silver

So, can some one help? ... and advise which one I should keep?

Thanks,

Vlad

links: 2 sa daggers pictures by sxc505 - Photobucket

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 06-10-2010 01:11 AM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**locloc08** · 06-10-2010, 06:33 AM

I'll leave the more pressing questions to people who know better than myself, but neither dagger is a Rohm dagger. Rohm presentation daggers were only given out to particular men at the bequest of Ernst Rohm, the SA commander. The reverse of the blade on these examples has an inscription that reads something like, "your comrade, Ernst Rohm". Unfortunately, many of these pieces are partially vandalized. After the SA leadership were eliminated by the SS on Hitler's order, Heinrich Himmler asked all recipients to remove the inscription or dispose of the dagger. Rohm daggers are very desirable and sought after. Completely intact examples even more so.

**Adrian Stevenson** · 06-10-2010, 08:06 AM

Hi Vlad, I would keep the Ernst Pack made dagger as the condition is best.

Cheers, Ade.

**R.R** · 06-10-2010, 01:59 PM

Hi Vlad,

My two cents:

Seems to me upper crossguard from your 1st dagger is terrible bended, may be it's not original from this dagger and appears it was forced in place.

Black SA logo appearence in your 1st dagger may be results from metal oxidation.

Both scabbards seems to me anodized early type with solid nickel fittings, painted scabbards often has nickel plated fittings.

I think there is no ground Rohm daggers among your two daggers, ground Rohm blades don't have original crossgrain preserved on grounded areas.

I think the entire handle is not original from your 2nd dagger, that explained aluminium fittings with a early blade. I don't like pommel nut fitting in place, in your 8th picture seems to me there is a gap between the pommel nut and upper crossguard.

I agree with Adrian, the 1st is not perfect, but the best choice.

Regards,

Ricardo

**gerrit** · 02-04-2014, 08:42 AM

My 2 cents:
Daggers both are in bad shape.
Scabbards both had a repaint, done recently and certainly no wartime job ( last scabbard pics show wear, but no typical flaking like a hard paint does)
Top Guards do not fit, top nuts do not fit its seems like someone tried to turn the nut thru the top guard, it even gave the grip the familiar tension crack.
As you said the Wingen has ALU guards and grip eagle that makes it a parts dagger.
Early Wingen with logo should Always have nickel silver guards and Gaumarkings.
This grip and guards are from a late rzm dagger that had the upgraded ALU guards.
But what is most likely its potmetal ( zinqalloy) which completely lost its nickel plating.
ALU guards did not need maintenance and would normally be in good condition.
That would def. make the Wingen a parts dagger, with no collection value.
I have the same concern about the top guard of the blonde grip Pack, but that deformation of the guard could be from a way to tight nut.
About the guards: nickel silver on the early ones.
The RZM normally have nickel plated zinqalloy ( potmetal)
The ALU guards were an expensive upgrade on the rzm ones, and you will rarely see them.
The SA rune has corroded ( bad storage, moist) is often seen, no big deal.

Anodised scabbard have a finish lacquer that often cracks, when the lacquer is gone the anodation is easily getting thin, and the base metal color gets visible.
Its not like paint, it has no "layer" and will not Flake with wear like pained ones do.

We have lots of great posts here with excellent examples of both RZM with painted scabbards as the early one with anodized ones, take you pick and lear

Cheers,
Ger

**Wagriff** · 02-04-2014, 09:20 AM

Personally, I would not keep either one, as they both have significant defects quite different from each other. Defects that drastically reduce their collectability and values. You can generally tell a ground blade that once had an engraved inscription by the position of the makers mark. On normal blades, the makers mark is about a finger's width from the crossguard, but to make room for engraving, the marks are close up to the guard instead.