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Nskk rzm 7/12

Article about: Hi I recently bought this NSKK My concern about this is the offcenter rzm mark. Is it a fake. I like the crossgrains though. Reg Lars

  1. #21

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    I think that from my perspective the word "gebrannt" might be better translated as baked (as in an oven ie: heated to a high temperature) versus air dried. In other words something more likely done with the proper equipment in a factory. Best Regards, Fred

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  3. #22

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    Well, nice for me to read and learn.
    I can get a full refund, ... I have been offered more than I paid
    But I keep it as I like it as it is.dispite spiderman did not pay me a visit.
    🙃

  4. #23

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    Quote by Frogprince View Post
    I think that from my perspective the word "gebrannt" might be better translated as baked. Best Regards, Fred
    Yes, it is something like that. It was occasionally also done with belt-buckles. Then it was named "brüniert gekocht".
    This procedure was done with Brüniersalz. So, no "real" paint.
    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 08-05-2016 at 09:17 AM.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  5. #24

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    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    Where is it written it should be factory paint? It is only said: black and to be burned....schwarz lackiert und gebrannt
    Hi Wim,, I dont have the official written directive ..but it was through Adolf Huhnlein,,that the scabbards be painted black or replaced. There are NSKK daggers that had SS dagger Scabbards both painted and anodized..which would attest for the perfect paint.

    Rarely we do see a sloppily hand painted scabbard that shows excess paint over the scabbard fittings. For those SA men on a tight budget these scabbards back the cost 7.05 RM. Those guys panted their scabbards. The majority purchased the SS Scabbards .

    Due to the Type of scabbard marrying an SS scabbard to an SA dagger..the fit of the upper scabbard fitting to the lower crossguard did not conform or fit perfectly due to the Casting of those particular SS producers. We see this with SA scabbards also marrried to other SA daggers leaving gaps.

    The Forge process of the blade played a large factor with tight fitting or loose with the internal runners.

    To support ( order I 3613/36 ) .... From 1936 and on NSKK daggers were distributed with Black scabbards. Prior to the final order..it was hand painted or scabbards found by other means.

    I dont have the exhaustive resources that you Have Wim..but through what I have studied over the years..between the Early materials vs the mid to late period ..the paint type changed being a less evenly factory applied brown an black for both SA and NSKK . The early black scabbards noticeably a thicker factory application. The curdling or "spidering effect" of the paint changed over the decades.

    In closing.. " done at the lower costs" was through Hand paint..but not commonly seen. My thoughts and opinion would be that since Huhnlein ordered the change..I would think that the NSDAP should of absorbed the costs due and provide to the NSKK men their most commonly seen factory black or anodized scabbards.....which IMO only ..that is possibly the case. Maybe not on a grand scale but in the SA and NSKK dagger collector world ...these factory painted SS and post 1936 scabbards are found in collections today.

    I hope this may shed some light Wim on the painted process types.

    Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  6. #25

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    Thanks, Larry C.
    For me this is a learning situation. Daggers is not my "piece of cake"
    and I am always glad someone is available at this forum to explain.

    The Hühnlein-order was very brief. Nothing was mentioned in-dept
    (see part from the NSKK-Verordnungsblatt). Neither in the
    "Mitteilungsblatt der Reichszeugmeisterei". I had a look in
    all of my official sources. No more was said. Where the scabbard
    was to be painted was not mentioned, neither for the SA-dagger.

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	986412

    In the many "NSKK-Korpsbefehle" nothing was said either how to
    proceed. Nor this was said in the "RZM-Herstellungsvorschriften".
    This in contrary for the HJ scabbard. First this was mentioned to be
    "schwarz brüniert" and in 1938 as "schwarz lackiert", which is a
    real difference.

    The use of the black scabbard was a fact, due to the final transformation
    for various uniform-parts as for the collar-patches (into black), the black
    stripe in the Litze for the rank, the black for the swallow-nests and the
    black for the top of the kepi with the black leather chin-strap. All of the
    changes came before the black scabbard was mentioned.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  7. #26

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    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    Yes, it is something like that. It was occasionally also done with belt-buckles. Then it was named "brüniert gekocht".
    This procedure was done with Brüniersalz. So, no "real" paint.
    Thank you Wilhelm. Which I would read as 'bluing salts' a common type of chemical used for finishing the steel on guns, scabbards etc. that were never "anodized". Best Regards, Fred

  8. #27

    Default

    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    Thanks, Larry C.
    For me this is a learning situation. Daggers is not my "piece of cake"
    and I am always glad someone is available at this forum to explain.

    The Hühnlein-order was very brief. Nothing was mentioned in-dept
    (see part from the NSKK-Verordnungsblatt). Neither in the
    "Mitteilungsblatt der Reichszeugmeisterei". I had a look in
    all of my official sources. No more was said. Where the scabbard
    was to be painted was not mentioned, neither for the SA-dagger.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	img926.jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	156.6 KB 
ID:	986412

    In the many "NSKK-Korpsbefehle" nothing was said either how to
    proceed. Nor this was said in the "RZM-Herstellungsvorschriften".
    This in contrary for the HJ scabbard. First this was mentioned to be
    "schwarz brüniert" and in 1938 as "schwarz lackiert", which is a
    real difference.


    The use of the black scabbard was a fact, due to the final transformation
    for various uniform-parts as for the collar-patches (into black), the black
    stripe in the Litze for the rank, the black for the swallow-nests and the
    black for the top of the kepi with the black leather chin-strap. All of the
    changes came before the black scabbard was mentioned.
    Thanks for another piece of interesting information. The earliest that I know of specifications for the HJ knives also specifies a high chromium/nickel content for the blades. Not unlike some stainless steels that seems to have been abandoned fairly early in their manufacture. Also, one period catalog the I have shows the NSKK daggers complete with hanger @ RM 7.00, with another maker showing re-bluing and/or re-painting of sword scabbards @ RM 2.10 (sorry, but no mention of dagger repairs - although I image they would be a little less). Best Regards, Fred

  9. #28

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    I checked about HJ. With the first regulation it also was said "schwarz lackiert"
    (see below), so black lacquered. The "brüniert" must have been from about 1936..

    This was the description from the regulation "Bekleidung und Ausrüstung der
    Hitler-Jugend
    ", the official regulation from January 15, 1934. See copy:

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	986436

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	986437
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  10. #29

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    Ordnung muß sein
    Vielen Dank Wilhelm, sehr spannend information.

  11. #30

    Default

    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    I checked about HJ. With the first regulation it also was said "schwarz lackiert"
    (see below), so black lacquered. The "brüniert" must have been from about 1936..

    This was the description from the regulation "Bekleidung und Ausrüstung der
    Hitler-Jugend
    ", the official regulation from January 15, 1934. See copy:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	img928.jpg 
Views:	11 
Size:	139.2 KB 
ID:	986436

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	img929.jpg 
Views:	26 
Size:	143.7 KB 
ID:	986437
    Wilhelm, Perhaps I'm wrong, first confessing that I'm not a very good German speaker and the old style Fraktur script makes it even worse for me. But I still suspect that my undated RZM information is earlier which presents the specifications comparable for a non-rusting steel, also specifying both synthetic resin (Bakelite) and hard rubber grips, and a blued (technically in Germany it's 'browned' instead of blued using TR period terminology) scabbard. Whereas yours has what translates to a crucible steel (good quality but not a higher grade alloy), and grips of (??) and Bakelite - etc. So maybe it's just my poor ability in German - but I wouldn't mind having a better translation to help sort out the pieces of this puzzle. With Best Regards, Fred
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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