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Nskk rzm 7/12

Article about: Hi I recently bought this NSKK My concern about this is the offcenter rzm mark. Is it a fake. I like the crossgrains though. Reg Lars

  1. #31

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    I deciphered the word in the document below which had given me a problem in the # 2 paragraph, which is Kautschuk. Or in English - India Rubber, that was probably one of the ways that TR period Germans made reference to what in the U.S. was called hard rubber or Vulcanite. Also finding another related translation of an early HJ knife document that specified the percentages of the elements for the steel in the blade that roughly corresponds to a high carbon crucible steel. Along with the information that it was oil tempered, as well as having a handle made of malleable iron. Best Regards, Fred

    Attachment 986437[/QUOTE]

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  3. #32

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    Quote by Frogprince View Post
    Wilhelm, Perhaps I'm wrong, first confessing that I'm not a very good German speaker and the old style Fraktur script makes it even worse for me. But I still suspect that my undated RZM information is earlier which presents the specifications comparable for a non-rusting steel, also specifying both synthetic resin (Bakelite) and hard rubber grips, and a blued (technically in Germany it's 'browned' instead of blued using TR period terminology) scabbard. Whereas yours has what translates to a crucible steel (good quality but not a higher grade alloy), and grips of (??) and Bakelite - etc. So maybe it's just my poor ability in German - but I wouldn't mind having a better translation to help sort out the pieces of this puzzle. With Best Regards, Fred
    This part from the "Mitteilungsblatt der Reichszeugmeisterei" is from number 25 from September 14, 1935.
    So, it is anyway from a later date what you show.

    Kautschuk = rubber
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  4. #33

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    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    This part from the "Mitteilungsblatt der Reichszeugmeisterei" is from number 25 from September 14, 1935.
    So, it is anyway from a later date what you show.................
    Wilhelm, You are the one with the expertise and supporting documentation so I'm not at all questioning what you are saying - just trying to get the facts straight in my mind. So if I'm understanding it correctly, the document I posted is from "Mitteilungsblatt der Reichszeugmeisterei" number 25, dated September 14, 1935. With my confusion coming from an old discussion elsewhere where the earlier Reichsangzeiger Nr 101 5/2/1935 and Order Nr. 26 of April 24, 1935 referred to prohibited-restricted metal alloys such as Kupfer - Nickel - Blei - Zinn - Quecksilber - Chrom - Kobalt (Copper - Nickel - Lead - Tin - Mercury - Chromium - Cobalt). Not to be confiscated, but old stock to be used up until exhausted, and then non-strategic materials to be used for new manufacture. Which is what happened with TR era political and other daggers/ swords that had switched materials in how they were manufactured. With the primary special metal alloys for stainless steel being Chromium and Nickel (which is why I have been very suspicious of their use in certain non-military applications). Anyway, I hope that you can me sort out the facts. With My Best Regards, Fred

  5. #34

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    This is becoming very technical.
    Interesting to read. Thanks👍

  6. #35

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    Hello Frogprince,

    I know about the order Nr. 26 from April 24, 1935, which was published in the "Reichsanzeiger" Nr. 101 from May 2, 1935.

    But this did not happen all of a sudden. In most magazines this order was published much later, as for example the well-known
    "Uniformen-Markt". In this it was published not earlier then November 1, 1935 (nr. 11, page 6) in relation for the German police.
    The use for example for aluminum buckles by manufacturer's set going in early 1936. The order was related to: helmet-, weapens-
    and uniform mountings, belt-buckles and carabine-hooks. I do not know if a blade or grip did belong to this!! I am not that technical.

    The description for the dagger is somewhat different in the "Herstellungsvorschriften der RZM" from 1936 (pages 110-111). Here
    the blade was said to be from Gusstahl instead of the earlier Chromstahl. In 1934 it was as before Gusstahl. If needed I can scan the
    regulation from 1936. I just quote from regulations.
    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 08-13-2016 at 12:29 PM.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  7. #36

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    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    Hello Frogprince,

    I know about the order Nr. 26 from April 24, 1935, which was published in the "Reichsanzeiger" Nr. 101 from May 2, 1935.

    But this did not happen all of a sudden. In most magazines this order was published much later, as for example the well-known
    "Uniformen-Markt". In this it was published not earlier then November 1, 1935 (nr. 11, page 6) in relation for the German police.
    The use for example for aluminum buckles by manufacturer's set going in early 1936. The order was related to: helmet-, weapens-
    and uniform mountings, belt-buckles and carabine-hooks. I do not know if a blade or grip did belong to this!! I am not that technical.

    The description for the dagger is somewhat different in the "Herstellungsvorschriften der RZM" from 1936 (pages 110-111). Here
    the blade was said to be from Gusstahl instead of the earlier Chromstahl. In 1934 it was as before Gusstahl. If needed I can scan the
    regulation from 1936. I just quote from regulations.
    Thank you Wilhelm. This will be very brief as I have a meeting today that starts early. So if I got it correctly - it starts with Gussstahl, to Chromstahl, and then back to Gusstahl (as a mater of historical interest some Prussian Army swords had markings for Gusstahl). With the helmet reference interesting because if my memory serves me correctly the service German Army/Wehrmacht helmets were made of a hardened steel alloy that was to contain chromium/nickel. And presumably because of chronic and/or periodic shortages (or in anticipation of same), a provision was made for substitutes without those metal alloys - that had to be first tested and approved. Again with my thanks and Best Regards, Fred

  8. #37

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    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    Hello Frogprince,

    I know about the order Nr. 26 from April 24, 1935, which was published in the "Reichsanzeiger" Nr. 101 from May 2, 1935.

    But this did not happen all of a sudden. In most magazines this order was published much later, as for example the well-known
    "Uniformen-Markt". In this it was published not earlier then November 1, 1935 (nr. 11, page 6) in relation for the German police.
    The use for example for aluminum buckles by manufacturer's set going in early 1936. The order was related to: helmet-, weapens-
    and uniform mountings, belt-buckles and carabine-hooks. I do not know if a blade or grip did belong to this!! I am not that technical.

    The description for the dagger is somewhat different in the "Herstellungsvorschriften der RZM" from 1936 (pages 110-111). Here
    the blade was said to be from Gusstahl instead of the earlier Chromstahl. In 1934 it was as before Gusstahl. If needed I can scan the
    regulation from 1936. I just quote from regulations.
    Hello again Wilhelm, I forgot to mention yesterday that I would very much appreciate a scan of the 1936 regulation to add to verified period information. These pieces of information show what was happening inside Germany when all the different TR era items were made ranging from the sidearms aspect of the uniforms, to the buckles and other items that were all a part of the total picture. Again my sincere thanks for all you have added to these topics. With Best Regards, Fred

  9. #38

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    Hello Frogprince,

    as asked for: first the 1936-description from the "Herstellungsvorschriften der RZM",
    related to the HJ/DJ-dagger. Also included - for your convenience - the 1938 description
    from the Herstellungsvorschriften.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  10. #39

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    Not much of importance was noted by the RZM.
    With the issue 17 from December 6, 1941 the following was said:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    With nr. 2 from February 20, 1943 it was announced that (for the time
    being) no HJ-daggers were to be manufactured:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The subject HJ-dagger was not returned anymore in 1944!
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  11. #40

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    Wilhelm, Once again my sincere thanks for some very valuable additions to the information on how the Germans were handing the manufacture and specifications for some of the sidearm aspects of TR period uniforms and accessories. With as a practical matter from the datable items themselves, most likely earlier in 1942 when manufacture was stopped. As well as other information like Himmler's 1941/42 announcement that the SS-Degens he had been awarding would no longer be available because of steel quotas - it paints a picture of the challenges Germany faced as the war progressed. Now to study and try to assimilate the information that you have provided, Thank You again. With My Best regards, Fred

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