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Rare find Transitional SA

Article about: Hello Gents I would like to hear your opinions about a very early transitional SA dagger Gebr. Grafrath, Solingen” with RZM and M7/30 from my son Rafael. Rafaëldaggers | Rafaeldaggers.jouwwe

  1. #11
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    Hi Cor,

    Talking about marginal imperfections/details in this hobby: i have had a beautiful sword once.....all seems to be well until reply 25: his reply was about a tiny little DETAIL: the silverplated hilt was made of brass and Not made of alu.......
    That little detail sets me back 2000 euro.........

    lets put our differences in opinions aside and focus on this dagger:
    I have seen a lot of transitionals with a mix of period parts, nickel and plated parts, lots of them being solid period originals, but I have never seen a 100% fit & feel with a Gaumarked guard and a transitional blade.
    The ones i have seen with this config all had their "problems" easily said the details didnt fit.

    But..... lets assume this is a correct period piece, then we have to focus on one part:
    How did that crossguard got gau marked?

    So lets focus on the transitional blade and a Gaumarked crossguard, lets try to find examples that fit this config.
    I will try to find examples that fit this config and post the pics here as reference, hope other members will contribute as well.

    Cor im in this hobby to gain knownledge, not to force people into my opinions, i dont mind getting proven wrong, my ego is not that big that i wouldnt survive.
    So lets try to work this out with detailed pics etc.....

    Regards,
    Ger

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  3. #12
    Cor
    Cor is offline
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    O.k. Ger,

    Let's start with this one;

    "This dagger came from an old collection. This is a early RZM dagger that has nickel cross guards and scabbard fittings with the lower cross guard is stamped OST. the handle is the thinner style with the flat edges. The blade has a light SA motto and RZM m7/14 on the reverse. The blade shows full cross graining. The scabbard also has nickel fittings with the later more rounded scabbard. The scabbard paint has the crinkling throughout the paint as we like it. Condition very good +

    Item:
    JMT-8069"

    New Page 1


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    Regards,
    Cor

  4. #13
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    Hi Cor,

    thanks for the first try, but this SA dagger is just a late RZM that probably had a severe case of plate lifting on its guards, its easy to see this set does not fit the grip, and is a later replaced set.
    Look at the topguard the right side, the curve does not fit the wood.
    I know that Robert has this one in Consignment, although its on his website he is not the owner.
    He also did not provide a picture with the dagger in its scabbard.

    The search has only just begun, give it some time, if they are there on the net we will find them.
    Unfortunate this one is not one of them.

    Regards,
    Ger
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  5. #14
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    Found this one on the WAF forum, verdict: parts dagger
    so far no other hit found.
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  6. #15

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    The use of SA gruppe marks and SS district marks were discontinued after 1935 into 1936.when the RZM went into full swing..and was not necessary to identify SA and SS gruppes by their location. As I stated before in this thread...left over inventory. Gerrits photo of the Gruppe mark "Fr" Franken, Puma dagger and yours marked "Ns" do not appear on The gruppe mark listing in this forum..nor do they appear when I cross referenced the producer and SA gruppe designation.

    2 scenarios with the Puma dagger above..either it was left over inventory...OR..end 1945 Vet or surviving producer souvenir put together. Most Early grips to early grips to cross guards were a nice fit with a transitional blade..the quality was not totally lost yet...but there is a handful of producers in the Mid period that still had nice fitting daggers whereas others were very noticeable in fit.

    Many daggers were returned to producers for unknown reasons stemming to over stock..by the SA district..a repair of some type...unpaid and returned dagger. I see no issues with Mid period daggers having mixed in early fittings..but my point of this post only is in regards to the early only use of the SA gruppe mark. Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  7. #16
    Cor
    Cor is offline
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    Good points, but here is another one.

    D532 Transitional SA Dagger by Eickhorn


    This stamp (Wf) appears on the gruppe mark listing in this forum.

    Regards,
    Cor

  8. #17
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    Cor this one is completely early dagger, for sure not a transitional.
    It just has a replaced blade, partsdagger for sure, it even a 1939 blade!
    You have to find one close to 1936.....

    Regards,
    Ger
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  9. #18

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    Quote by Larry C View Post
    The use of SA gruppe marks and SS district marks were discontinued after 1935 into 1936.when the RZM went into full swing..and was not necessary to identify SA and SS gruppes by their location. As I stated before in this thread...left over inventory. Gerrits photo of the Gruppe mark "Fr" Franken, Puma dagger and yours marked "Ns" do not appear on The gruppe mark listing in this forum..nor do they appear when I cross referenced the producer and SA gruppe designation.

    2 scenarios with the Puma dagger above..either it was left over inventory...OR..end 1945 Vet or surviving producer souvenir put together. Most Early grips to early grips to cross guards were a nice fit with a transitional blade..the quality was not totally lost yet...but there is a handful of producers in the Mid period that still had nice fitting daggers whereas others were very noticeable in fit.

    Many daggers were returned to producers for unknown reasons stemming to over stock..by the SA district..a repair of some type...unpaid and returned dagger. I see no issues with Mid period daggers having mixed in early fittings..but my point of this post only is in regards to the early only use of the SA gruppe mark. Regards Larry
    quoting saves more time
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  10. #19
    Cor
    Cor is offline
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    A good one ?

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    SA DAGGERS | GERMAN DAGGERS | SALES

    Maby we find more of them and closer to 1936.

    Regards,
    Cor
    Last edited by Cor; 09-09-2014 at 08:48 PM.

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