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SA Dagger / Dienstdolch - authenticity in question

Article about: Hello! I have been slowly purchasing a collection of daggers from someone locally and I'm curious about this SA Dienstdolch as it seems like a very rare maker. These are the only two images

  1. #11

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    I would advise passing on this piece. It has definitely had work done to it. Whoever did it and when, is another thing altogether. They did a decent job, but it is not is original configuration and I would not want it in my collection.
    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

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  3. #12
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    This is a interesting one.
    The scabbard has the often seen brown on black paint, which easily can be removed (a nail will do the job)
    I have had quite a few RZM SA daggers with this black primer/paint underneath the brown, the scabbard looks Original painted to me.
    The screwless fittings are a first time for me, but i would not write this one off that quickly.
    What i miss is are some pictures with the dagger in scabbard, front and backside, to see how the fit between throat and lower crossguard is.
    as said, an interesting piece, and late RZM, perhaps a new way to attach fittings on a hull? late period no screws could save iron....

    Regards
    Ger

  4. #13

    Default

    I've also never seen a sa dagger without screw holes. and never read anything about it, interesting as Gerrit says.
    Maybe we can find out what we have here. Scabbard is definitly not anodised as I thought before, Good pics makes our work a lot easier
    Last edited by RafaelDaggers; 02-25-2016 at 11:33 AM.
    http://rafaeldaggers.jouwweb.nl/ The only information site for SA NSKK and SS daggers in dutch language!

  5. #14

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    What work has been done to it?

    Quote by Wagriff View Post
    I would advise passing on this piece. It has definitely had work done to it. Whoever did it and when, is another thing altogether. They did a decent job, but it is not is original configuration and I would not want it in my collection.

  6. #15

    Talking

    Here are a few more pictures. The scabbard appears painted to me as well and there are a couple of scratches revealing what looks like black primer beneath the brown. The fittings do not have holes but they look very old and have aged comparably to the other metals which, to me, appears original to the period. By the way, I actually purchased the dagger yesterday so I hope this doesn't end badly for me!
    Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #16

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    Yea, the screwless, (is that even a word? ) late war scabbard is rarely seen but they do exist. Likely a better term would be press-fit throats. We also sometimes see these on Armies or 2nd Lufts.
    Other than cleaning I do not see any work done on it but I perhaps have missed something.
    If you do get this I suggest you show Witty as he may include it in his upcoming reference, which I hear is making slow but sure progress.
    Who know your oddball may become textbook!

  8. #17
    ?

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    Quote by Lakesidetrader View Post
    Yea, the screwless, (is that even a word? ) late war scabbard is rarely seen but they do exist. Likely a better term would be press-fit throats. We also sometimes see these on Armies or 2nd Lufts.
    Other than cleaning I do not see any work done on it but I perhaps have missed something.
    If you do get this I suggest you show Witty as he may include it in his upcoming reference, which I hear is making slow but sure progress.
    Who know your oddball may become textbook!
    Screwless....Yes we Dutch have our ways with words

    There are 2 army manufactorers who had a screwless scabbard (the Aluminum serie by Eickhorn and the Kolping with Gen. A fittings)

    Seeing the latest pictures i have no problems with it, very nice fit and overall matching in appearance etc.
    For me a genuine late dagger and i think you have made a nice purchase, congratz!!

    Ger

  9. #18

    Default

    Agreed-the latest photos are looking much better. I have never physically seen or handled an SA with a no-screw sheath, but I have heard rumors of them, and now, it appears, we are looking at one! I still do not care for the coloring of the sheath, but considering how late an issue piece this one is, who can say? As has been said, it's not your run of the mill SA and you just may have come across an odd one in the woodwork! Interesting!
    Last edited by Wagriff; 02-26-2016 at 08:23 AM.
    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  10. #19

    Default

    Time to throw some cold water onto this thread:
    Karl Robert Kaldenbach RZM Permit withdrawn in February 26, 1937.

    Although the community has seen these dot marked RZM codes..the question that needs to be asked....what time frame are these Late appearing RZM producers supposed to be at?

    The period of transition ran in some cases up into 1939 with some producers.
    It has been suggested..much of these daggers began to appear around the early 1980s..with the use of Kaldenbachs actual dies before the company closed in 1960. Postwar enterprising to make a few dollars extra..still seems to work with many of these producers all the way into present day. Boker still makes SS daggers with their name on it..but look nothing like a desired period example.

    Kaldenbach is NOT a known SS dagger producer..yet has an SS contract code. No period documentation supports Kaldenbach as an SS Producer..which returns to the thought of a late period SA RZM code seen in the Mid period. Too many questionable variables with these RZM daggers. The " screwless" scabbard fittings are a first for me..and would be curious how this sole producer was able to retain secure the throat fitting with out the use of what was always seen during the period....... Why this producer ?
    Impossible to say..if they were ahead of their time in construction..yet losing their RZM license early . Ahead of their time..with poor Etch applications ? Not for me...and maybe one for Wittmann.

    These daggers appeared in the early 80s all of a sudden..not just one..but many. My thoughts and opinion that this scabbard is modern day..fitted onto a post war dagger.
    When many doubts and questions arise with a dagger or any collectible that does not appear consistent with other period examples..or within reason...then ..its best to dig deeper for the truth..and if the truth can not be found..then buyer beware.

    In some situations there are daggers..or should I say a "sole " dagger that comes out of the woodwork revealing all period construction..with a minute change in detail..that is considered rare.
    This I would welcome for further study....but when a daggers` of one sole producer appear in the late 20th century ,,which RZM daggers are more easily copied than their early predecessors construction...I would approach with caution,.. especially when their RZM license was withdrawn early in the mid period.

    Great thread Gents ..and more thoughts are encouraged in this thread..and I dont mind being proven wrong for the sake of the truth be found. Thats all that matters.

    Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  11. #20
    ?

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    beautifully said Larry - especially the 'screwless scabbard'

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