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SA dagger with Ernst Röhm honor inscription

Article about: Dear War Relics Community! I'm kindly asking for your opinion and expertise regarding the Ernst Julius Röhm honor inscription illustrated in the attached photos. In case if you would need fo

  1. #1

    Default SA dagger with Ernst Röhm honor inscription

    Dear War Relics Community!
    I'm kindly asking for your opinion and expertise regarding the Ernst Julius Röhm honor inscription illustrated in the attached photos. In case if you would need for opinioning more detailed photos than of course I can post further ones.
    Thank you in advance and kind regards. Sandor
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  3. #2

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    Hi Sandor

    I like what I see in the photos provided ..but Im kind of impartial to the grip which doesnt appear to conform to a typical early Eickhorn grip.
    Compare the upper and lower triangles of your grip to the photos below. All the early Eickhorn Rohm daggers had this detail.

    I saw a difference in the grip fit with the top guard on your example that seemed misfitted.

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    please feel free to use the forum search engine at the top right or search through the many threads here within this SA forum to compare with. If found a few that appear untouched and have the smaller triangles ..the possibility is there that Eickhorn ordered grips from an outside source.
    Im very positive of your example. I like it alot.

    Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  4. #3

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    Dear Larry!

    First of all thank you very much for your answer. I completely understand your remarks regarding the grip triangles. I will try to make entirely perpendicular photos (both recto and verso) in order to see exactly the real dimension and shape of the triangle.
    Indeed the dagger was dismantled and might happen that the top guard was fitted back in the opposite way.
    So far the Eastern/Central European museum curators are entirely positive about the dagger and about its Ernst Röhm honorary inscription originality.
    I have full respect, trust and admiration regarding their opinion nevertheless we also know that the collectors & passionate community are the same or more knowleadgeable and I'm more than happy and curious in all possible opinions and expertise.

    Would you like to see photos also under dismantled status of the dagger?

    Reading your message I try to conclude between the lines that you are very positive about the originality of the dagger. Before coming into my collection this outstanding dagger was preserved for decades in a reputable collection from Central Europe.

    Thanks again and kind regards, Sandor

  5. #4

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    Dear Larry!

    Thank you very much once again. Here are the perpendicularly taken photos.
    Furthermore be so kind and let me know if you want to see the photos of the dismantled hilt.

    Kind regards, Sandor
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  6. #5

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    Thankyou for the extra photos Sandor and a very balanced reply ...and Im seeing an SA Gruppe B not known to be seen with any Eickhorn daggers.
    Perhaps a peek into the crossguards would be affordable which brings me to another point ...that this dagger has been opened ..and not seen in the first photos you posted that the blade is turned around or the grip?

    The logo should be facing the rear of the dagger..perhaps an oversight of the museum curators.
    Im glad you posted this dagger here for further review as it seems in fact you may have had some doubt in the curators..according to your first post asking for opinions.

    The difference between here on this website and museums ...We study and research...the museums study to a point or just enough to have enough info to display what they have for the public to see. Some curators are on top of their research..others just wing it.

    So bringing your dagger here ..we will take it a few steps further where the curators left off.
    If you may please post photos of the inside of the guards. There are not too many Gruppe mark B designations out of over 200 producers.

    SA Gruppe marks known to Dagger Producers and Manufacturers
    A Gruppe mark thread for your reference pinned at the top of this forum.
    Looking forward to more photos .

    Best Regards larrt
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  7. #6

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    Dear Larry!

    Thanks a lot for your full of information reply. I trust of course museum opinion. They quoted the piece 100% genuine and according to museum professionals this is a very early type and from those with honorary text (widmung) only few tens or best case scenario few hundreds survived. The rest and based on Führer command the "widmung" was removed.

    The reasons of bringing to the community are multiple and I would like to highlight few: first of all for general joy of the community to enjoy the photos of another survived Röhm dagger (with intact widmung), second definitely to get additional opinion and expertise from collectors about the 100% originality of this piece of art. I think that we collectors are all the same: we want to be 100% sure that our pieces are genuine and entirely original.
    My "edged weapon" area of expertise is slightly different therefore I'm presenting my apologise if some of my questions are not professional enough. Under early type you meant 1931-1932 period?

    Hereby I post the photos of the dismantled crossguard and topguard. Indeed there are more information inside (H and E letters). Furthermore there is also a stamping/embossing on the crossguard bottom-visible side: a kind of 8 or B.

    I'm very curious on your answer and expertise.

    Sincerely, Sandor
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  8. #7

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    An oversight on my part and also the curators..and just seeing this now.

    A question to ask and a request...do you know why the large Eickhorn logo was not used and replaced with the small double oval close to the crossguard ?

    Could you post photos of the inscription and motto on the same green background not using white?

    the whole inscription including the logo
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  9. #8

    Default

    Dear Larry!

    Probably the earliest convenience to do more photos it is tomorrow evening. I used white because that is the only place protected from sunlight. The green is my office desk full of light.

    I don't understand your following question:
    A question to ask and a request...do you know why the large Eickhorn logo was not used and replaced with the small double oval close to the crossguard ?

    Furthermore can you please let me know what have you and curators oversight / overseen?

    About the full inscription, for the proportions judgment there are two photos with full inscription. Unfortunately with white background but is quite visible.

    PS: Just as an additional information, I know this dagger since approx. 30 years. It was since a very long time in one single collection. Maybe this information helps as well.

    Thanks a lot for your expertise. Sincerely, Sandor

  10. #9

    Default

    Continuation of my previous message:
    The Carl Eickhorn logo from the blade is entirely the same like in the enclosed www reference used by Carl Eickhorn plant in 1933-1935 period. Maker Marks

    That was also an attention point and in depth checked by the curators. The checked as well the etching of the widmung and the Alles für Deutschland by microscope and found it entirely corresponding-

    Reading between the lines of your answer, could be possible that the blade is Solingen and the fittings are from a different producer?

  11. #10

    Default

    Lets wait until you can post the photos tomorrow evening and will proceed from there and further study the difference in space between the inscription and logo. I want the forum to be on the same page with the same backgrounds so to clear any doubt.

    A photo for now that shows a large double oval very close to the inscription and later made smaller and moved closer to the lower guard as seen on your example.

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    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

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