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Vet Acquired SA and NSKK RZM 7/12

Article about: I bought this pair from Gottlieb in 2007. This is some text from an email to me by Craig "What is strange is that he told me he took these off of not one, but two, soldiers who were sur

  1. #1

    Default Vet Acquired SA and NSKK RZM 7/12

    I bought this pair from Gottlieb in 2007.

    This is some text from an email to me by Craig


    "What is strange is that he told me he took these off of not one, but two, soldiers who were surrendering to his MP unit. I don't doubt him, but I find it somewhat puzzling that two guys would be carrying unissued political daggers by the same maker. Makes me think that a) the German soldiers were carrying them to surrender to allied troops in hopes of gaining better treatment (and had themselves pilfered them from a uniform shop) or else, b) the vets memory is fading. However, he was VERY lucid, and wrote me very detailed letters of his actions, including his recollection that the soldiers he got these from were wearing green uniforms, and were "ready to quit."

    Maker is a bit scarce also - M7/12 Carl Robert Kaldenbach I believe."


    I spoke with the vet after the purchase. He confirmed what Craig told me. Here is some pics and letters from the vet that was passed on with the purchase.

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    SA Dagger

    You will notice a small water drop below the left wing. It started to sprinkle when I was taking the pictures.

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    NSKK

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  3. #2
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    Default

    Welcome to the Forum maxspeed...G

  4. #3

    Default

    Thanks G.

  5. #4

    Default

    Hi Max...first off these daggers belong to Max Weyersburg RZM7/12..and not Kaldenbach..which is RZM7 / 72

    2nd always buy the item and not the story....unless there is precise provenance from a reputable source
    Where is the rest of the story..of how long he had them and when he contacted CGottlieb? How old is this man now? is he still alive??
    When were these documents dated? I see no dates on these letters.

    I would want more rock solid proof before I would buy these...but the alternative is...study the item.

    Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  6. #5

    Default

    I didn't buy the story, I bought 2 nice RZM daggers. The story was an after fact. Knowing full well CG's reputation from my years of collecting I followed up with the vet to confirm the authenticity of these daggers.

    The first letter was dated August 7, 2007. I covered up the date and the vets name and address in the photo to protect his privacy, clearly visible in the first letter photo. I have the vets name, address and phone number. He lives in Queensbury NY. The 2nd letter was dated June 4 2004. I spoke with him on the phone and confirmed everything I was told (he spoke I listened, I simply asked him about his experiences and how he acquired these daggers. I did not lead him with questions. The vet in doing research found CG's site and contacted him prior to his June 4 letter. It took him until 2007 to decide to part with them. He even told me what he sold them to CG for.

    According to following sites, Kaldenbach was both 7/12 and 7/72. How are you distinguishing which maker it is?

    maker marks
    https://www.lakesidetrader.com/Education/RZM/
    referenceguide

  7. #6

    Default

    Im looking at the same sites as you are..maybe you need to take a closer look again

    edit strange...I just saw it below the RZM7/ 12..but if you look down towards RZM7 72.. there is Kaldenbach
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  8. #7

    Default

    maker marks

    Click image for larger version. 

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    referenceguide

    M7/12 WMW - Waffenfabrik Max Weyersberg, Solingen
    M7/12 Carl Robert Kaldenbach (duplicate)

    https://www.lakesidetrader.com/Education/RZM/

    M7/12 WMW - Waffenfabrik Max Weyersberg, Solingen
    M7/12 Carl Robert Kaldenbach

  9. #8

    Default

    yet both entities have separate permits..which none are overlapping. Kaldenbachs RZM permit was withdrawn in 1937. There is no history between these 2 producers,,and they did not share the same permit. Weyersburgs permit was issued in 1934.

    lakesidetraders listing

    M7/70 David Malsch, Steinbach
    M7/71 Herm. Hahn, Solingen-Wald
    M7/72 Karl Rob. Kaldenbach, Solingen-Grafrath
    M7/73 F u. A. Helbig, Steinbach
    M7/74 Friedrich Aug. Schmitz, Solingen
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  10. #9

    Default

    I did check all the sites I referenced and saw that 7/72 was also listed as Kaldenbach. I am not saying that my daggers aren't Weyersberg, they could. I am asking how you have reached the conclusion that it's not Kaldenbach when they shared the same RZM number. Did the RZM number appear differently on the blade based on which company produced it?

  11. #10

    Default

    yes the number appears differently. There are no SA producers who had dual RZM permits..that was reserved for a the SS producers only. The only thing the SA had was dual transitional logos.

    Solingen Stadt archives in Germany Biographs these producers in detail and neither of these 2 are related or shared the same RZM number. Im sure there "Might" have been business dealings in trade with these and other producers..but there is no documentation that supports they shared the same number..never seen it..and this would be a great question to ask why these 2 producers are listed on other websites including here. Which I will edit shortly. Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

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