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Warsaw Uprising SA Dienstdolch

Article about: Another thought....who might be the producer of this dagger judging by the lower crossguard?

  1. #41

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    I would expect any bayonet type or a Heer dagger more so than an SA dagger that far east. I would also expect an Gruppe marked "OST" or "Om" more so than anything else. The "He" is for the SA gruppe "Hessen.

    Looking at Post #1 the original photo shows no scabbard which in the museum photo..."A Minty repainted scabbard" is shown. Hmmm supposedly being in a battle as the thread goes there is not one scratch on the scabbard.

    Also in post #1 the grip has very sharp and desirable contour ridges..that collectors love on these types. The Suhl makers were known and especially Kober to make Oak wood grips..regardless of the oak hardeness...any wood is bound to be damaged or chipped in rough terrain or usage..especially in a battle!

    Back to the scabbard..the Black scabbard is designated to an NSKK mann........... o_O HUH??? In Warsaw Poland??..and in perfect condition??...>_< Hmm Im not buying this story. I feel there might be some credibility to this story..but only in theory..that the Polish eagle application was done post war. How and why would an early SA dagger designated mostly for western and central Germany...ended up all the way out into Warsaw. The condition of the dagger mostly should scream against the story of supposedly being in battle.
    What ever that dagger is in that museum IMO was never in any battle.




    Below are the pics from the first post and a museaum pic showing a fresh scabbard.
    And also to compare to my Melzer and Feller NSKK.."With original painted scabbard...and "Worn"
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

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  3. #42

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    Please excuses my ignorance in regards German daggers, so we are concluding that the original German owner of this SA dagger, as you describe being designated mostly for western and central Germany, would never have seen any military service in occupied Warsaw? Would an individual never have owned both a Heer dagger and an SA dagger from an earlier period?
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  4. #43

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    Only if the elected SA mann who was transitioned in to the Army or SS Unit might of brought it with him. The question to be asked is why it would of been brought with him..as he would either already have a bayonet/ Heer officers dagger ( if he was an officer) / or an SS dagger since he was already into the early SA..and would be granted an SS dagger. This is only theory...but again it goes back to the ( "condition" ) of the dagger and the supposed battle it was in according to the thread. Drive a black BMW on a rainy day and tell me there will not be water spots on it after it dries. Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  5. #44

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    So there is the chance of this SA dagger being in Warsaw if the owner transferred into the Army or an SS unit which I assume was a possibility, and if the dagger had special significance to the owner he might equally have brought it with him along with the rest of his belongings when stationed or living in Warsaw.

    Is there the possibility that the owner might have chosen to take advantage of the commercial or civil service administration opportunities offered by the occupation of Poland and moved into the Germans only sector of Warsaw with his family as many Germans did.

    IMO the condition of the dagger is in hard to determine given the poor quality of the photos. The dagger may not have been in battle, it is not even clear that it was taken from a German soldier, the caption just says "captured during the Warsaw Uprising" which could just be a more heroic euphemism for it being liberated by "Mewa" from a cabinet or draw in some German billet

    Next time someone is planning to visit the Warsaw Rising Museum please take some better photos
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  6. #45

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    Larry you mention in your post:

    " Back to the scabbard..the Black scabbard is designated to an NSKK mann........... o_O HUH??? In Warsaw Poland??..and in perfect condition??...>_< Hmm Im not buying this story."

    I found in "The Warsaw Ghetto: A Guide to the Perished City" By Barbara Engelking-Boni, Jacek Leociak" Fig. 1.7 page 31 reference to NSKK under Occupation Administration, Order Police and Security Police in GG and in Warsaw under Governor Hans Frank. NSKK is listed under sub-head Order Police and SS.

    Here is Amazon search link: NSKK in Warsaw
    The Warsaw Ghetto: A Guide to the Perished City - Barbara Engelking-Boni, Jacek Leociak

    Would this be the same NSKK you refer to in your post or another NSKK or are the authors mistaken?
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  7. #46

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    Thankyou Stefan for clarifying the role of the NSKK being in the Police structure under Frank. There is no disputing historical fact. Granted!!

    I do encourage also anyone who has visited this museum and has been on the WRF to contribute any photos they may have. There is a possibility that the NSKK mann was transferred from his original post of duty. I also encourage other members who study the SS Police structure..and also those who study the SA itself to jump on in this discussion as right now its between 2 Moderators....which is fine..but the forum belongs to the members also.

    What brought my attention to this thread was the first few posts stating that this particular dagger was in "BATTLE".....which IMO is a fallacy and fantasy to put it in broader terms. The word "battle" can be used as a verb or noun...which I would lean more to the noun definition.

    The photos are crappy..except for the top photo of a dagger on a dirty rag. Since Corporal Marion had this particular knife as he states then it was never "Used" in battle...not in the condition it is in. I see it wrapped up for safe keeping...agreed!....which would be a prize!

    Im not fond of unresearched text saying items were used in battle..because of mass stereotyping.....this dagger was not "used" battle. The condition and the shiny new scabbard..( late RZM type BTW .....says otherwise. More photos and comments are welcomed.
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  8. #47

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    AK Kilinski Battalion did capture a German police station in central Warsaw.

    Any thoughts as to the size of the Polish eagle? I have never seen an SA dagger, or any other German dagger, in the flesh so have no real appreciation of its actual size. I do have an AK cap which has a small Polish eagle attached and it looks similar to the one on the dagger grip.
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  9. #48

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    Stefan would it be possible to see the back of the Polish eagle and see what the prongs look like? This may lead to how something like this could be attached to the grip..it looks as thought the Polish eagle is contoured to the grip.
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  10. #49

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    The scabbard looks resprayed to me larry so I wouldn't go on that. If all the fittings are perfect (which we cant see) then that's a different story.

    The grip does appear to have a few dinks under the SA button but yes its tidy. The top guard looks fairly scratched though.

    MEWA could have been one hell of a careful owner? theres nothing to say he wasn't.

    Also how long has this been in the museum? If its spent the last 40 years tucked up in there its gonna look nice compared to the rest of our daggers that have been circulating on the open market getting knocked about.

    To me the date doesn't stack up so personally id be surprised if it was there. However, even against the odds, this still isn't good enough evidence to say it wasn't there.

    regards matty

  11. #50

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    Quote by kindzjal View Post
    SA Dagger used by a Home Army (AK) fighter during the Uprising :
    Quote by Krieger View Post
    nice dagger. The dagger was used by polish troops
    I dont believe neither statements above which both are conflicting with each other....the word "Used" ..which mean it must of been worn during a battle. Leaves me to think..where is the battle usage by all the Polish troops who handled it. or was there a "Timeout"..that the specially protected dagger had to come out from its protective blanket..to be "Used". I have taken into consideration that the Guest who posted that statement was just a troller.

    Quote by mattty01 View Post
    MEWA could have been one hell of a careful owner?
    I can believe this much as it might have some credence which the dagger could of been treated as a "war trophy"
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

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