SS Makers Codes/Contract Numbers
Gents, just in case guys dont know I will do this thread and fix it. This will be a list of SS makers contracts codes/numbers
35 - Overhoff & Cie, Ludenscheid
36 - Overhoff & Cie, Ludenscheid
155 - Assmann & Co, Ludenscheid
822 - Richard Seiper, Ludenscheid
RODO - Robert Dold Offenbach
RZM 24 - Overhoff & Cie, Ludenscheid
257 - Christian Theodore Dicke, Ludenscheid
RZM 57 - Martin Winter, Munich
RZM 63 - Martin Winter, Munich
JFS - Josef Felix & Söhne, Gablonz
RZM 36 - Berge & Nolte, Ludenscheid
EJL - Emil Juttner, Ludenscheid
Last edited by Ben Evans; 02-16-2014 at 10:51 AM.
02-15-2014 10:43 AM
Any comments, additions amendments please post and I will update the list
I think there is in the meantime an agreement that "RZM 63 SS" stands also for Martin Winter.
And how about Emil Jüttner?
All done mate
Wrong. I never stated that. It is indeed possible that nickel silver SS buckles marked RZM 63 SS were in fact all made by MW then lastly just sold by Steinhauer & Lück but it does not change the fact that an SS buckle is shown offered with its own reference in one of Steinhauer & Lück sales catalog. The number of MW and S&L SS buckles I was able to study were many but I did not pretend to have seen all of them! Only the ones I studied were indeed made using the same dies which was used for MW's SS buckles as well.
I would say that, to be accurate, only 36, 155, 257 and 822 should be in this list. Any other number attached to RZM is just an early RZM number and not at all a strict SS number. Many buckles other than SS were made using the same codification. Then the same applies to RODO, ELJ and JFS which were just trademarks. At that point OLC for Overhoff was also used on late SS buckles like it was on other buckles as well.
by Ben Evans
What you have stated or not is one thing ... but what I have meant, were the opinions of me and my collector friends. Or do you think you are the only person who is authorized to talk (and write) about SS buckles?
by Jean Pierre Redeuilh
So, could you please provide ANY valid data which was posted or wrote on this subject which was not directly linked to what I wrote in 2004? Or maybe you could also post / write / show another specific detail (other than what I posted in 2004) which would ascertain both RZM 57 and RZM 63's SS buckles were made from the exact same dies? Or even anything else on this matter which was posted / wrote before what I wrote in 2004? Until then I feel sorry for You but my ego is still maintained.
Anyway, when reading something in a sticky thread (sticky's are considered to be used as a reference thread, isn't it?) I prefer to find reliable information. What I wrote is, at least, posted / wrote and backed with photographic evidence. It still can be read / approved / rejected / denied / commented any time. The Steinhauer & Lück sales catalog IS an evidence (I did not wrote that one believe me). Unfortunately what you are stating is just what you are stating. Unfortunately not an evidence at all and IMO should not appear to discredit which was accurate to begin with on a sticky called "SS Makers Codes/Contract Numbers": RZM 63 SS is most likely linked to S&L not MW.
I know that I am wasting my time to start a discussion with you. Maybe you spent a hugh effort into your studies about SS buckles and this provides of course a lot of data. The meaning of these data is however another question.
Perhaps we should clear wich information is relevant or not. To find out who is the maker is the first and the main question. To know who is a possible distributor is irrelevant, or at least subordinate in my eyes. I will not say distrubutors existed like sand on the sea, but we had probably many of them during TR. Who will find out wich distributor sold exactly wich buckle? Were there distributors who sold buckles from different makers? These are perfect questions to Mr. Sisyphos. By the way the thread here is called SS M A K E R S
This is a good joke. We all know that a sales catalogue shows us just that the seller offered SS buckles. Not more and not less. To get the information if he is also the producer is nearly impossible by just watching falsified or drawn images. Note the SS buckle shown in the Assmann catalogue. Is there one little thing that remembers on Assmann SS buckles?
Can you show please an SS buckle produced (not just distributed) by St. & L.? I never saw one.
What I know for sure is the following.
We have 4 types of buckles that were produced in quite the same period:
- SS buckle, nickle silver, marked RZM 57 (SS)
- SS buckle, nickle silver, marked RZM 63 SS
- DAF/ Werkschar buckle, nickle silver, marked RZM M4/2
- SA buckle, static swas, brass, marked RZM 57
All of these are in my collection so I am indeed able to examine them. What attracts attention is that all these buckles have many similar features. For instance the shape of the fold over flange, the shape of the ears, the quite long prongs, the tiny dimple on the lower pin head, ...
This suggests only one conclusion: All 4 buckles were produced by the same maker!!
Next conclusion: The contract number RZM M4/2 can be clearly assigned to the Martin Winter company.
Next conclusion: The contract number RZM 57 can also be assigned to Martin Winter (not clearly because of the initial uncertainty of the makers by marking their products)
Next conclusion: The contract number RZM 63 SS could be a specific SS contract number, wich was given to Martin Winter
On the other hand, have you ever took a look at a RZM 63 marked SA buckle (BTW also in my collec)? It has really nothing, but really nothing similar to one of the former mentioned buckles.
So my personal opinion is, that the maker of all these 4 buckles is Martin Winter!
From my viewpoint I don't see here any relationship to a buckle produced by St. & L.
And please do me a favor. Don't mention your ancient threads from stone ages. I don't read them and others perhaps neither.