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121/34 SS Dagger

Article about: Hi all, I'm new to the forum so I'll take a moment to introduce myself. I'm a collector of modern American militaria, occasionally dabbling in comm-bloc stuff and some older American stuff d

  1. #1
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    Default 121/34 SS Dagger

    Hi all, I'm new to the forum so I'll take a moment to introduce myself. I'm a collector of modern American militaria, occasionally dabbling in comm-bloc stuff and some older American stuff depending on my mood.

    A family member inherited the following dagger several years ago with minor provenance, I had looked it over and told him it was authentic and to come to me if he ever considered doing anything with it. He's considering selling it now and wants more details but I'm not an expert with these so I'm deferring to those who are.

    RZM#: 121/34
    Manufacturer: Troost-Wolf AG. Munchen
    Pattern: 1933
    Production Year: 1934
    Distribution Marking: None
    Materials: Nickle Fittings, Painted Scabbard, Ebony "Fat Grip", ...
    Mainly I'm wondering:
    ~ Am I correct in that it is legit? (everyone can make mistakes and provenance is sometimes "embellished")
    ~ What other specifications are noteworthy?
    ~ Why is it missing a distribution mark?
    ~ What is the weird circle shape near the blade tip? Is it common?
    ~ What would your opinions be about the condition?
    ~ What's the average price range for these, and how much impact does the condition play in today's market?

    I watermarked the images because EBay Scammers are a plague!
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    Last few photos I took and forgot to include.
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    Hi Indye..welcome to the forum, I see that you have done some research which I find impressive ....your dagger is salty but original..and your details about the dagger..are quite accurate except the name of the producer. All fittings are of the nickel type which is common for this 1934 time period. Aftr that as the years prrogressed..the materials lacked and the fittings plated..and base metal was pot metal or a cheaper variety by near the wars end.

    RZM 121/34 is an unknown maker to this very day...and the name Troost Wolf is in fact a producer of miniature awards RZM M12/1 . Yet speculation and assumption by the Author Fishers Reference admits that .....

    Quote - " It has been an assumption that a special series of M12 numbers have been established by the RZM,,and the authors have not found any documentary evidence as confirmation to this effect. If they were issued then they would have been duplications of the above M12 permit
    ( below are a list of M12 miniature awards producers .)

    RZM M12/1 Troost-Wolf
    RZM M12/2 Josef Wolf Waffenfabrik
    RZM M12/4 Karl Wolf Waffenfabrik
    RZM M12/6 Wilhelm Wolf & Sohn

    I think you may have misread the RZM numbeer 121/34 and may have thought it read 12/1

    Below is a link to the Structure of the RZM
    Reichzeugmeisterei ( RZM ) Organizational Function

    The letter "M" seen before a number is a metal license prefix. Listed below are 12 prefixes of materials controlled by the RZM.
    M/1-Insignia
    M/2-Sub-contractors
    M/3-Symbols and emblems
    M/4-Belts & buckles
    M/5-Uniform accessories
    M/6-Aluminum products
    M/7-Daggers
    M/7h- Dagger sub-contractors ( not seen )
    M/8-Metal accessories
    M/9-Tinnies
    M/10-Musical instruments
    M/11-NSDAP Long service medals
    M/12-NSDAP "Miniature" Long service medals

    Included below are the other prefixes also pertaining to the RZM control.

    RZM - A Ausrustung / Outfitting
    RZM -B Baumwolle / Cotton and fabrics
    RZM - D Dienstkleidung / Service clothing
    RZM - E Einzelhandel / Retail trade
    RZM - G Grosshandel / Wholesale
    RZM - H Handelsvertreter / Trade representatives
    RZM - K Kleidereinzelhandel / Retail clothing
    RZM - L Leder / Leather
    RZM - M Metall / Metal
    RZM - V Verkaufstellen / Retail outlets...also worked in conjunction with RZM E
    RZM - W Wolle / Wool

    Continuing on.......A reason why there is no Roman numeral stamping on the lower guard may be because it was never issued and found that way. No worries ..its still early and correct.

    That circle from what it appears are moisture damage to the blade..where the scabbard runner have rested over the decades. It also appears that this dagger may have been under water for some time,,,then found..and allow time to erode the blade.

    Your research has harvested much info..as I said before and I would encourage you to do a little bit more on researching prices. The forum is not an evaluation service and I feel you are going in a great direction and are very close to finding current market value on this particular unknown producer.

    In the present condition which i feel your dagger is untouched or unmessed with will not permit current market value. What I can say is that current market value of a decent conditioned to near mint 121/34.. will be in the 4k range. Your example is not within that range.

    Give a look see at these reputable dealers below and see what SS Dagger prices range at

    Meda Militaria Home
    Lakesidetrader | German WWII Daggers & Medals
    Wittmann Antique Militaria
    We Buy & Sell German WWII Daggers, Medals & More!

    Enjoy your stay here Indye..it was a pleasure to read your research efforts.

    Best Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  5. #4
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    Thank you for the fast and detailed reply.

    I wasn’t certain about the manufacturer, so I am very happy you pointed out my error; in all likelihood I had misread the source I got the information from.

    Kudos on the issue numeral marking comment.

    Thank you for the suggestions with pricing too. I had already looked at the first 3 sites, but the 4th site is new to me; it's unfortunate they don't have much in the way of prices available. I just want to make sure I offer him a fair price, since being family he is inclined to sell it to me no matter what I offer him.

    The underwater comment is very interesting and explains several mysteries about the condition. Do you happen to know what the interior of the sheath is made of (leather?)? Because this one seems fairly difficult to remove and I am left to wonder if the interior of the sheath has any sort of water damage that may impede it's draw.

    Thanks again; when the day comes that there's a post cold war board on the forums for field gear & PPE, you can expect I'll be there.

    I am very open to more comments and help.

    If anyone has any photo requests please don't be afraid to ask, I'd like to help future readers as much as possible.

  6. #5

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    This is whats inside the sheath..they are brass runners which will accumulate crud from vets putting oil in the sheath..which over the decades..anything is bound to dry .and create a hard abrasive surface. You can see the high points of the runners where the crud sits..which also rests on the blade inside the scabbard.

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    I would suggest you dont take down the scabbard and remove the throat. this dagger is already in an untouched state,and further damage may be caused..devaluing the dagger further. IMO leave it alone. Those tiny little screws have 2 threads on them....if you try to unfreeze them from the upper fitting you may smear like but the nickel dome....or if you succeed on getting them out..you may not get them back in and damage the threads.

    You may also gravely damage the runners..which are held in by 1 pin on each side of the throat..one wrong turn or too much pressure...your screwed

    I advise against it....if you are looking to turn a profit..as messing with those runners will not add value to the dagger.
    below are cleaned runners..which had taken me 4 hrs to restore. Not an easy task.

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    Leave the dagger be..and sell it as untouched with condition issues. Its still an SS dagger.

    Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  7. #6
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    Default

    Thanks; I certainly wouldn't, taking apart or even cleaning an untouched piece is sacrilegious to me. Even handling certain antique pieces without gloves makes me cringe inside.

    I simply asked because I want to be sure I take care to maintain it, and taking it apart to best determine how to do that would be counter intuitive. It appears that if I did buy it, I may want to remove it from the sheath once and display both side by side in a proper case as to prevent additional friction of removing it time and time again.

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