1936 Chained SS Dagger, or is it?

[Totenhead]

The blade has a sharp central ridge, the motto is not positioned correctly, just little things

[Externsteine]

The photo is taken from above, so it's hard to determine the sharpness of the central ridge, but it looks fine in person. No one else has brought the motto position into question, and I can't see what you mean when comparing it to photos of the legitimate article. Could you be a bit more specific?

Thanks for your help.

[Totenhead]

In the pictures, the motto does not look positioned correctly to the ridge of the blade, which does seem very sharp. These, I have read are indicative of a reproduction blade

[Larry C]

Ok My turn!!!......now that we established a few more pages of text,, lets not waste anymore of it on words...they are about as useless right now as a wooden deer tick. NOW WHATS BEST AT THIS TIME is to wait and hopefully ASAP an upload of photos,,or THERE WILL BE NO MORE TIME TO WASTE as this thread has become educationally ineffective and I will close it....MY PROMISE!!
I encourage you Extern,, to do this soon as many would like to see instead of guessing. I will quote Edgar Allen Poe..Believe only half of what you see and nothing that you hear.” ,,,,so with that quote as i dont want to hear any more other quotes except this last one i posted...onward with the photos so it will give us that "half" of what we see a 50 /50 chance in finding out the real truth. If this thread passes the 5th page without photos and more rhetoric....Gauranteed I will close this thread.
We heard both sides of the argument...this part is finished.

[Larry C]

Ok enough time has past,,,, Extern is MIA..I would like to reopen this thread and examine the time frame of the Chained scabbard alone...from the early period to late period. The type of fittings from Nickel silver to Iron silver plate. I would like to hear thoughts on this Time frame and also to re-examine Externs "Whole dagger" and Chained scabbard.... as I will post my thoughts and information later tonight. I would encourage to stay on topic and not drift towards any type of "self alternative beliefs or following" that was started in this thread,, I will delete this type of text immediately. Lets here your opinions and your thoughts the Time frame and materials used on the Chained scabbard,, and also in concordance with Externs example. Regards Larry

[Larry C]

Just to keep this thought in the forefront of things and its not meant to derail anyones thinking of the example shown by Extern..but it must be noted for the reason of this thread and the existence of the Chained SS scabbard.
Most of us Know that the SS man who would of joined before or on 1933-34-35,,would still have to wait the 3 years of consecutive service before receiving the Chained dagger. Also the same order applied to those members joining after 1936.
We would see Early Maker logo daggers and..taken into consideration also of the RZM maker 188/36 placed into Chained SS fittings of a 1938-39 Vintage..which explains why we see so much lifting and rusted parts,, compared to the superior fittings of the initial early production.
It has been stipulated from some advanced collectors that an RZM dagger inserted in the Chained Scabbard do exist..but only under the above order mentioned for those who joined after 1936 and had to wait the 3 years before receiving a Chained scabbard.

I will quote from Wittmanns SS reference on pg 148..3rd paragraph.
“There are other combinations though that are difficult to explain and more often than not, will prove to be original. Consider the following situation,,if an nco joining the SS in 1935 and became an officer in 1938, for that matter fulfilled the 3 consecutive years of service requirement by the same time period, he would be entitled to wear the chained scabbard. He could of chosen to insert his early dagger in a scabbard of 1938 vintage..ie;..(a scabbard with later , plated fittings throughout ) . By using the same reasoning an SS nco beginning his career in 1937 would have possessed an RZM marked service dagger.
Theoretically 3 years later he could of worn this RZM marked dagger,,with a singly purchased chained scabbard of ( a 1940 vintage ) Tom Wittmann quote.

Lets not lose sight of what Tom Said,, as he said…”Theoretically”
Now the question to be considered in this case of the dagger belonging to member Extern is a 1940 vintage which IMO would have been awarded to the SS member during 1940 and then wait 3 yrs of service before obtaining the Chained scabbard of the plated fitting variety. The question here is when did the production stop with Late 1940 style chained scabbards and when did total SS dagger production cease,, due to the out break of war and shortages of parts. Did this officer wait until 1943 before he received what is considered a late model Chained Scabbard?...or did he get one at all? The other thought is that SS membership increased dramatically and to find any Chained scabbards were next to nothing. These Scabbards were not readily available during those later years and nor could a good majority SS afford one,, which resulted in home made hangers to support their dagger.

The fittings on Externs Chained scabbard show the nickel silver variety. So now we wait for the photos,,as from the understanding of the quote above and the material usage during those later years should prove that the Chained scabbard should have had plated fittings as also the same for the standard SSem dagger. It is still my opinion until we see closer photographic proof that Member Externsteine has a parts scabbard and possibly a parts dagger.
My comments written here are not to trash Externs example but to bring to light the possibilities of what Tom Wittmann is inferring. This is wishful thinking for collectors who may have this type of combination,,as what is deemed the “norm” would be an unmarked blade or an early maker dagger inserted into a 1936 style scabbard.

It is also wishful thinking of a relative that was given a dagger as posted by Extern to believe it is all real,,,but one must remember that GIs had no text books to see what was period fittings and what was not,, but only used their own eyes on what other GIs had in their possession of a Chained scabbard..or any dagger in that event. They put together what looked good ,, and this is the reason why we see so many parted daggers.

There are 4 Chained types…… 3 of which are.Considered as Type II by the collecting community
1936-Type A ( nickel silver )
Type B1-( Nickel silver),,which are deemed Type II or the tapered style connectors to the Wotans knot.
Type B2 iron nickel plate….Wotans Knot tapered connectors
Type C…….of which is considered as Type I by the collecting community..comprised of “Iron Nickel Plate” and having the “untapered” Wotans Knot connectors…….All 4 Chained types are also separated by Skull style tabs…ie:….teeth, eye sockets, nose cavity…and kulturzeichen on the back of one of the tabs. This is a great study in Ralf Siegerts SS reference.

Any thoughts on this information or Externs example?

[Frogprince]

From my own perspective, it was in 2003 that an online discussion was initiated to propose that what was then labeled the “Type X” with a visible nasal septum in nickel silver was very likely what should be considered the first true model of the M1936 chain set. Acknowledging that it could be argued back and forth - but in any event, both it and the so-called “Type II” in nickel silver were the first chain sets manufactured. The so-called “Type I” in heavy nickel plated steel the next, and the so-called “Type II” in lighter (thinner) nickel plated steel the last ones manufactured. With TW’s book actually having an example of a “Type X” in it, but no acknowledgement of it being in any way different. And the different chain skull links, Wotan knot (or cloverleaf), and tapered/untapered links, SS-Kulturzeichen (etc.) separating the different types. And with no dates, that the SA types of daggers were most likely the best indicators of comparable manufacturing materials/techniques for dating purposes.

And my own sense of what I’ve seen here so far. First it was the story of: ”A comrade recently gifted me a 1936 Chained SS dagger that he purchased for $100 in the 1970s.” But with that said - I’m not going to go into past experiences with different stories, or the motivations I’ve seen in the past. Instead focusing on what I see now. And my assessment from the images posted (to date) as if this was a new topic. So from my perspective, the chain set IMO having a lot of similarities to some of those I’ve seen lately from Eastern Europe. Being an even lower quality (bad casting?) than many I’ve seen with misshaped skull links. And the “Runes” link itself - not even having Sigrunen that are centered inside the link (instead of at one end). Which is something of a first for me, because it’s usually the skull link that gives fakers the most problems (in my experience).

With the images I’m posting - first what a legitimate period “Type II” in steel looks like. And for comparison the thread starter (note the relatively sharp definition of the cloth material behind the links). Now maybe some new pictures will change my mind, and disprove what I have stated. But if not................. Fred

[Frogprince]

............................ "It has been stipulated from some advanced collectors that an RZM dagger inserted in the Chained Scabbard do exist..but only under the above order mentioned for those who joined after 1936 and had to wait the 3 years before receiving a Chained scabbard... I will quote from Wittmanns SS reference on pg 148..3rd paragraph. “There are other combinations though that are difficult to explain and more often than not, will prove to be original. Consider the following situation,,if an nco joining the SS in 1935 and became an officer in 1938, for that matter fulfilled the 3 consecutive years of service requirement by the same time period, he would be entitled to wear the chained scabbard. He could of chosen to insert his early dagger in a scabbard of 1938 vintage..ie;..(a scabbard with later, plated fittings throughout ) . By using the same reasoning an SS nco beginning his career in 1937 would have possessed an RZM marked service dagger... Theoretically 3 years later he could of worn this RZM marked dagger,,with a singly purchased chained scabbard of .............." ( a 1940 vintage ) Tom Wittmann quote. ...........................

Larry, You’ve asked for some thoughts, and it has admittedly been a while since I’ve looked at what is available in the way of information from period sources. So this is something of a ‘rough cut’ of what I remember/quickly found without doing a more in depth look. And while I’m certain that many ‘corners were cut’, or procedures not even established for membership in the the early SS, that changed as it became more established. With Himmler’s August 1936 announcement that the M 1936 daggers could only be purchased by an SS-Mann, as of that August date in 1936 for an officer who was one as of 9 November 1935. Or for an SS-Mann who had three years of service prior to 30 January 1936.

But to be an (other ranks) “SS-Mann” you first had to be to be sworn in and were presented your (M 1933) dagger which was not “instantaneous” - but the end result of a fairly long process. Which typically meant that if an applicant had reached his 18th birthday, and passed certain physical/other requirements he could become an SS-Bewerber (Candidate). Some training, and then an SS-Anwärter (Cadet), and other steps that he had to take and/or tests to pass. And (prewar) six months in (usually) the RAD, and then two years in the Wehrmacht. And then back from the Wehrmacht and still an SS-Anwärter, receiving his final SS training/indoctrination. And only then becoming a full SS-Mann on the 9th of November in a formal ceremony.

So if Wittmann’s hypothetical NCO joined in 1935 using what seems to have been standard procedure for the time. He would have not even have been awarded the M 1933 as an SS-Mann until approximately sometime in 1938 (best case and in the RZM time frame). And if nothing else had changed as to eligibility, 1941 when he would have been first allowed to make a purchase of a M 1936 dagger. And that is without even taking the training that was also required for an NCO being taken into account - which itself was not “instantaneous” (and something else that he does not seem to be aware of). Best Regards, Fred

[85ronnies]

Guys my thoughts on the dagger are,
CHAIN...fake, very very poor detail to links and lack of pebbeling to background.

SCABBARD.......possibly ok, but throat has been replaced looking at poor marrying to top scabbard fitting.
also centre mount has raised ridge and should be flat again poor detail to background (known fake error).

BLADE..... high ridge, dedication runs off,(fake error) crossgrain seems same as recent fakes i have handled.

GRIP.... seems ok but most definatly not origional to crossguards shown.
looking at the top nut it dosent seem to be so tight and could possibly be turned by hand to undo, then tang can be seen for what it really is and crossguard maker could probably be identified,

hope this helps a little,
cheers Ronnie

[colt45]

interesting when did they stop issue of daggers 41 - 42?