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1936 Chained SS Dagger, or is it?

Article about: The blade has a sharp central ridge, the motto is not positioned correctly, just little things

  1. #1

    Default 1936 Chained SS Dagger, or is it?

    A comrade recently gifted me a 1936 Chained SS dagger that he purchased for $100 in the 1970s.

    I am not an expert, but to me everything appears legitimate about both the scabbard and the dagger when they are examined separately.The problem is that this dagger bears an RZM mark with the SS sub-contracting number associated with Carl Eickhorn, and the year of production is listed as being 1940.

    If it was an unmarked blade, I would not worry. If it had a maker's mark, I would assume that it was an early '33 dagger that was updated with the chain scabbard in '36. I have not heard of the opposite happening, though, with a later RZM dagger showing up in a '36 scabbard.

    Could there be a legitimate reason for this anomaly? For example, if the blade was damaged in 1940 and had to be replaced, or the SS man in question became an NCO and decided to separately buy the chained '36 scabbard. Has anyone heard of that happening?

    I am including several photos, but they are not the best quality. I did get a nice shot of the maker's mark. The chain does feature the double SS approval stamp.

    Thank you for your assistance.

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  3. #2

    Default Re: 1936 Chained SS Dagger, or is it?

    It appears to be a mismatched set, as the dagger does not fit
    the scabbard well - there is a large gap where crossguard
    meets the mouth.........
    Regards,


    Steve.

  4. #3

    Default Re: 1936 Chained SS Dagger, or is it?

    Walkwolf,

    Thanks for the prompt reply. I declined to mention the gap between scabbard and crossguard because I'm acknowledging that they could not have been issued at the same time, or it would bear no maker's mark.

    I have seen '33 daggers put into upgraded '36 scabbards and I'm asking if it ever happened with later RZM blades, as SS members became NCOs or damaged their daggers, etc.

    I am confident that both of these items are the genuine article, but were they originally mismatched during the NS period or did someone decide to make this hybrid post-war, when all those parts daggers were flying around. Is there any way to tell? Has anyone heard of this happening?

    Thanks again. This is an invaluable resource.

  5. #4

    Default Re: 1936 Chained SS Dagger, or is it?

    If an SS man who joined post-Kampfzeit/Gleischaltung was issued a regular SS dagger, then later became an NCO, might he not buy the chained scabbard separately, just as those with early '33 daggers had done?

    If your dagger blade was badly damaged, could you simply stop in an RZM shop and pick one up?

    Also, weren't the Waffen-SS permitted to start wearing the chained dagger in the 40s?

    Is the consensus of the members that both items are genuine, at least?

  6. #5

    Default Re: 1936 Chained SS Dagger, or is it?

    First welcome to the forum......Anything is possible as no period proof supports this and all Chained SS daggers either are unmarked or Early maker logo blades elected by the wearer to save some money. In this case you cant make a dollar out of 99 cents,, this dagger has many issues.
    You nailed it when you said "Hybrid post war" The center ramp on the scabbard is replacement,,the connector links for the chain tabs are all separated the clover leaf link attachment is repro. The chain itself is brand new out of the box.
    The upper and lower scabbard fitting are genuine,, the center ramp is not.
    There is no wear or age to the fittings except the upper and lower scabbard fittings. This dagger was not kept in a sock drawer all this time.
    It is very difficult to see the blade because of the flash. This is a parts dagger as Walkwolf has said. I can not comment on the grip or the crossguards as they too are washed out by the flash.
    To give you an idea what a Chained SS is supposed to look like,, view this link from Lakesidetrader https://www.lakesidetrader.com/item.php?ID=5063 .
    You will see a great difference in condition,, the maker 120/34 by the way is an early 1934 maker.
    The consensus from other given comments will support that it is a parts dagger,mixed with repro. Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  7. #6

    Default Re: 1936 Chained SS Dagger, or is it?

    As was stated above by Larry and Steve at best it's a parts dagger, with some of them worth a much closer look. And the quality of the images really making it difficult to assess, other than to say that there are (IMO) multiple questionable areas needing to be examined. Controlled items - both the M 1933 and M 1936 were listed for sale from the SS-Kleiderkasse as complete units, not separately. And if something was going to get damaged it was most likely going to be the sheet metal scabbard. Which in this case looks almost untouched, and if OK would have been from earlier production. Also, statistically the bulk of the Waffen-SS never had a dagger with production stopping in early 1942. With Himmler in a 1943 directive authorizing: SS Leaders of the Security Police, and SD to wear the M 1936 daggers to the end of the war, but only with the formal uniform with a punishment of three days confinement for violating his order. And for all leaders not at night when they had to wear instead a pistol, no daggers permitted. The wearing of the M 1936 also being forbidden with other types of uniforms. And if you didn't already own a M 1936 dagger. You had to personally go to the SS-Kleiderkasse in Berlin to try and get one. So if it's not already apparent, I'm not a really big fan of the "for sale separately school of thought". Although I would agree that it's possible that an owner of an already purchased M 1933, who was later qualified to also buy a M 1936 dagger could have switched them if he elected to do so for some reason. But as indicated above, the matter is time sensitive. And I'm enough of a realist to know that a lot of the switches, parts swaps etc. were made postwar, which has been confirmed time and time again from collectors who were active "back in the day", and most unfortunately has not stopped from that time forward. Regards to all, Fred

  8. #7

    Default Re: 1936 Chained SS Dagger, or is it?

    Thank you for the feedback, gentlemen.

    It could be a completely legitimate dagger owned by an SS man who qualified for an M '36 and decided to switch around the dagger/scabbard at some point during those tumultuous times, but I know the odds are against it, and there is simply no way to differentiate it from the "Frankensteins" littering the market in order to reach a decisive conclusion.

    Larry, you mentioned that the clover link attachment is repro. What makes you certain of that? There is definitely something "off" about it, as it's in significantly worse condition than the Wotan Knot and the chain/scabbard itself. There's quite a bit of rust in it. I will take some photos in the daylight so the flash isn't washing out the metal on that and the crossguards.

    Are there any parts on the dagger and/or scabbard that are outright reproduction, rather than replacements? Also, am I dealing with a painted or anodized scabbard? It's in remarkably good shape.

    It's sad that in a case such as this, we will almost certainly never know the truth, due to the unscrupulous behavior of profiteers who deserve a spot in a KZ for the way in which they have sacrificed history and sacred cultural legacy for personal enrichment.

  9. #8

    Default Re: 1936 Chained SS Dagger, or is it?

    I would sooner believe that my dagger is 100% original than accept some of these laughably over-the-top examples I've seen being sold by otherwise reputable "experts" like Wittmann. The Eicke dagger is a perfect example of what I mean. He recently sold this dagger for $6500:

    Wittmann Militaria #34824 Model 1933 SS E.M. Service Dagger with Eicke signed Runic Blade

    Of it, he writes the following:

    It is an unmarked blade and on the obverse has a runic inscription which is assigned with a facsimile signature of Theodore Eicke. The inscription is the same as the example shown in my SS Book on page 263. This inscription represents the worst of the SS beliefs and anti-Semitism. This inscription was translated at the Army Museum at Fort Bragg. The inscription basically means, “The SS man who carries this dagger will use it for the elimination of the Jewish race for Germany and the Reichsführer-SS (Signed) Eicke”. It is amazing that someone would actually carry a dagger with an inscription of this terror but as we know this philosophy was a mainstay adopted by the SS through Heinrich Himmler and Adolf Hitler.

    I am familiar with the Runes (Younger, Elder, Armanen, and Anglo-Saxon Futhark) and this "Runic inscription" is nothing but a mishmash of symbols, some of which are Runes. It says nothing about the SS bearer "exterminating Jews." It also appears to be a post-war alteration, not Third Reich period etching. How convenient that this master decoder at Ft. Bragg, who deciphered the inscription, remains nameless.

  10. #9

    Default Re: 1936 Chained SS Dagger, or is it?

    Quote by Externsteine View Post
    Walkwolf,

    I am confident that both of these items are the genuine article, but were they originally mismatched during the NS period or did someone decide to make this hybrid post-war, when all those parts daggers were flying around. Is there any way to tell? Has anyone heard of this happening?

    Thanks again. This is an invaluable resource.
    Externsteine.....Provide better photos with no flash especially in the areas of previous comment. It seems as though you have your mind made up and it is not a loss to you either way as it cost you $100,, but your comment above comes with doubt.. I would encourage you to post detailed photos so as to swing your thoughts away from the Hybrid theory...but I will tell you this our collectors here of this type of dagger do not sit down in a valley,,and more so ontop of a hill as we can see things coming a mile away. The separated chain tab links,,shine the brightest which begins the path of doubt for the rest of the dagger.
    The clover leaf or wotans knots tear drop openings do not conform with other M36 examples,, the opening is more rounded...and anything can rust in a given time............BUT...it goes back to the flash point as anything is hard to see when there is bright light shining in your eyes.

    Wittmanns dagger bears no significance on this thread as it has nothing to do with your dagger nor does his business practices...lets not talk about that here on this thread. I do see your point though trying to elaborate on the "Kulturzeichen" on the back of one of the tabs which is barely visible...again because of the flash.
    I have already commented on the scabbard above ,, but it is the painted version,,im surprised you seem to know alot about this type of dagger but not knowing the difference in painted and anodized! The upper scabbard fitting screws are mismatched also,, as one is leaning more discolored than the other.
    Provide better photos,,,, but IMO this dagger is like a "Fat girl in a bikini",,she may be pretty but still it doesnt look good....but personal preference who do like this and as of now this dagger isnt looking that good as it is mismatched. Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  11. #10
    ?

    Default Re: 1936 Chained SS Dagger, or is it?

    Uncle Frank took a dagger from a Luftwaffe prisoner at end of war, he gave it to me and it was a Red Cross, they gathered what they want in 45

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