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Brown scabbards on mm SS daggers?

Article about: Hi all! I recently bought my first SS dagger, a M33 Gottlieb Hammesfahr Ground Röhm, with two dots left of the original inscription (but I guess it's not enough to call it a "partial&qu

  1. #1

    Default Brown scabbards on mm SS daggers?

    Hi all!

    I recently bought my first SS dagger, a M33 Gottlieb Hammesfahr Ground Röhm, with two dots left of the original inscription (but I guess it's not enough to call it a "partial" Röhm ). The dagger has previously been reviewed here on the forum and the consensus then seemed to be that the dagger itself was 100% legit, but that the scabbard was a repainted SA scabbard.

    Now, since I have been looking at a HUGE number of dagger pics here on the forum and elsewere I have seen that the same type of presumably repainted scabbard shows up with quite a few early maker marked SS daggers. Please see the pictures below of different scabbards with the same brownish surface finish underneath the black "paint".

    My question to the guys and gals that have been into the dagger collecting business longer than I is, would you say that these all are repainted SA scabbards (and then of course not original to the dagger) or is there some other explanation to the brownish surface finish beneath the black "paint"? Were the SA scabbards treated in the same way, with anodization (or bluing as I have understood that the correct term really is) but that made them brown instead?

    Please help out a newbie to understand a little bit more of the intriguing world of SS daggers!

    Thanks!

    Martin

    Brown scabbards on mm SS daggers?Brown scabbards on mm SS daggers?Brown scabbards on mm SS daggers?Brown scabbards on mm SS daggers?Brown scabbards on mm SS daggers?

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  3. #2

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    When these first production SS daggers came out..the scabbards were either anodized black or painted black !
    The order for painted scabbards came out in 1936 after the fact and were applied to NSKK daggers.

    It is not correct for early production SS daggers to have painted over brown scabbards.
    It would be best to remain with what is consistent and period .

    For myself...I would want an all period original dagger.

    Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  4. #3

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    Thank you for your swift reply Larry! Do you know if the anodizing process always made the scabbard blueish-blackish or could this be changed into brown when SA scabbards were manufactured? Otherwise, how was the brown color of the SA scabbard obtained?

    Here is a link (Early SA Dagger by F. Plucker | Lakesidetrader) to a SA scabbard (I don't know how to attach images in replies) that obviously has brown paint or laqcuer over the same kind of brownish metal or anodized surface that is displayed on the SS-dagger scabbards. Is the brown surface (beneath the paint or laqcuer) the result of the anodizing process or is it the metal itself?

    Sorry, I just try to wrap my mind around this matter…

    Martin

  5. #4

    Default

    Quote by Dark Knight View Post
    Thank you for your swift reply Larry! Do you know if the anodizing process always made the scabbard blueish-blackish or could this be changed into brown when SA scabbards were manufactured? Otherwise, how was the brown color of the SA scabbard obtained?

    Here is a link (Early SA Dagger by F. Plucker | Lakesidetrader) to a SA scabbard (I don't know how to attach images in replies) that obviously has brown paint or laqcuer over the same kind of brownish metal or anodized surface that is displayed on the SS-dagger scabbards. Is the brown surface (beneath the paint or laqcuer) the result of the anodizing process or is it the metal itself?

    Sorry, I just try to wrap my mind around this matter…

    Martin
    Martin, Because I began my TR period collecting with guns - I had no idea at all that some of those who collected daggers had for some (unknown to me) reason adopted “anodizing” to describe the blue and brown metal finishes on steel dagger scabbards. Period German documentation uses Brünierung which translates to “Browning” - that being a term used by those on the European continent to describe both the brown and blue color iron-steel oxide metal finishes.

    The Browning process itself a very old one used on a number of early period firearms, originally brown in color, the blue/black colored finishes were a later innovation. The downside to the process being that it tended to be very labor intensive, and there was a fair amount of experimentation and different techniques used which is why the end results from some makers have a different appearance. Solingen makers turning to painted finishes presumably because they were more economical to manufacture. (Except of course for their German Army and para-military contracts where they continued to use the old type of blueing before transitioning to a later much faster process.) Best Regards, Fred

  6. #5

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    Thank's Fred for your explanation! So what I am really trying to wrap my mind around is if one could draw the conslusion that all supposedly SS scabbards that exhibits brownish anodized metal finish (in contrast to black finish) underneath black paint are actually SA or NSKK scabbards? I saw at least two more SS daggers here on the forum (of which one was a M36) yesterday that also exhibits brownish metal where black paint has been ground off. As a newbie and lacking the experience that the guys who have been doing this for decades I just try to find some general rules that one could abide to, as for example in determining the type of M36 chains.

    I should maybe mention that the scabbard at the bottom of the picutes above, on the wooden bench, is the scabbard that came with my Hammesfahr Ground Röhm.

    Are there any other opinions on the scabbard issue out there I would love to hear them!

    Cheers!

    Martin
    Last edited by Dark Knight; 11-06-2019 at 08:41 AM. Reason: Just added NSKK

  7. #6

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    I've seen what appear to be SA scabbards with a brown iron oxide finish that has been IMO postwar painted black. There are also a very few that may have been period painted that probably has to be seen in hand. There are also scabbards that have naturally rusted in places to a brownish color that is covered over with a postwar brown or black paint. In hand the best way, sometimes you have to look at them for a while before making up your mind - which can include some other indictors of postwar work. Best Regards, Fred

  8. #7
    MAP
    MAP is online now
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    Default

    Quote by Dark Knight View Post

    ...... (I don't know how to attach images in replies) ........

    Martin
    Martin,

    It's simple. Click the "Go Advance" button on the bottom right of the reply then it will bring you to a page similar to (or exactly like) one when you start a new thread.

    Follow this tutorial.....

    Visual Guide to Upload Photos

    Look at the first screen shot titled " 1) Adding to a new post of and existing thread".
    "Please", Thank You" and proper manners appreciated

    My greatest fear is that one day I will die and my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them

    "Don't tell me these are investments if you never intend to sell anything" (Quote: Wife)

  9. #8

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    Thanks again Fred. So, as with so many other issues in life, there is no simple rule that you could abide to. I have put Wittman's book on SS Daggers on Santa's wishlist, hopefully it has something to say about scabbard manufacturing.

    Martin

  10. #9

    Default

    Thanks MAP! Now I know… You have a very funny banner by the way.

  11. #10

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    Quote by Dark Knight View Post
    Thanks MAP! Now I know… You have a very funny banner by the way.
    Not funny but true
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

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