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Chained SS Study of the 4 Chain types

Article about: Here's some info courtesey of Mr. Bruce Petrin on germandressdaggers.com . There is some interesting facts contained therein. Dagger Information – SS 1936 Chained Dagger In late 1936 Himmler

  1. #1

    Default Re: Chained SS dagger opinions

    Here's some info courtesey of Mr. Bruce Petrin on germandressdaggers.com . There is some interesting facts contained therein.



    Dagger Information – SS 1936 Chained Dagger

    In late 1936 Himmler introduced a new chain hanger for the existing officers daggers and for new officers, a new style dagger for wear, as well as old guard NCO’s and SS members who had joined prior to January 1933.

    There are over five pages of documentation that the chain would be issued and not one document stating anything about a new dagger production. Yet, common sense will dictate that new officers would be entering the SS post 1936 and with that said, it’s obvious that the new style dagger was produced.

    The later produced dagger was similar to the 1933 SS dagger but with the addition of a chained suspension hanger and a scabbard with a central mount fitting decorated with swastikas and a pebbled background. Crossguards and scabbard fittings, as well as the chain, were all solid nickel. The later made dagger post 1937 era dagger has poor quality base metals with nickel plated fittings. Scabbard finishes can range from Oxide Finnish with a clear lacquer to black lead based paint.

    The chain was designed by Karl Diebitsch and comprised of octagonal plates embossed with the SS deaths head and SS runes. This had two meanings to it; the first is the skull and crossbones to signify a secret society. The second is the Sig Rune that is the power of Good over evil. The chains suspension clip was embossed with an ancient Germanic motif called "Wotans Knot".

    The reverse of the plates was stamped with the SS proof mark of two intertwined "sig" runes.

    There are two different style of chains:

    SS Type 1 Chain - that has NO burnishing on the centre band and plates of the chain its self, as well a DRGM marked clip under the Woton Knot. The last two connector rings are square as they enter the Woton Knot.

    SS Type 2 Chain - has the dark burnishing on the plates and the centre band, and the Woton knot is solid, with the last two-connector rings angled to fit into the Woton knot.

    The SS Chained daggers had no maker’s marks on newly issued daggers post 1937, on period upgrades that consisting of well over 18,000 officers and old guard, these daggers simply had the centre band added and the upper fitting adjusted. Then the chain was added. These will display the early style trademarks and in many cases the SS officer’s numbers.

    Again there is NO direct documentation that the blade should not be marked and an unmarked blade does NOT constitute textbook at all. It’s a fact that 95% of all reproductions exhibit no trademark on the blade, as well as post war parts daggers made in the 1960’s have NO trademark.

    The new-chained style dagger could only be purchased through official channels and was only initially worn with the black SS uniform. In 1943, officers of the Waffen SS were given

    Permission to wear the chained dress dagger with their field grey walk out dress uniform along with a Heer (Army) style Portapee due to their military status. At this time they were also allowed to purchase the chained dagger form official RZM sales outlets.

    Production of the dagger discontinued in at the end of 1942.

    Regards, Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

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  3. #2

    Default Re: Chained SS dagger opinions

    I would like to add some additional info to supplement what Ned has posted.

    The Type 1 and 2 designations are, of course, collectors terminology. These were applied many years ago now. Much is this has now passed into collector folklore and is a bit out of date. The "type 2" actually came out first which can be misleading to the new collector.

    The big differences are the design of the skull and the design proof mark on the reverse of the chain. There is also a much rarer newer designated "type 3" skull desgn link, of which I am very fortunate to own on my now well known Dr.Lolling dagger.

    There are also variations to the design of Wotan's knot and the centre ramp fittings.

    I will take some pics to illustrate these points.

    Cheers, Ade.

    In addition to the 4 variants seen is a small description of the Production period and Chain types including connectors - Larry C

    Out of the 4 Chain Variants are noted as:

    Types A , B1 and B2 are equipped with the beveled Wotans Knot connectors

    Type A - Nickel fittings with septum in the nasal cavity - Initial Production period
    Type B1- Nickel fittings ( No septum ) - Mid period production
    Type B2- Nickel plated ( No Septum ) - Mid to late period production

    Type C - Equipped with Type I Wotans Knot connectors ( Un-beveled ) - Late period production

    ( View this Link ) for a detailed analysis by Member JR Meda .... The M36 SS Dagger Chain Configurations
    Last edited by Larry C; 09-26-2015 at 01:41 PM.

  4. #3

    Default Re: Chained SS dagger opinions

    OK, first off here are the two different styles of Wotan's knot. Note the shape of the holes which the chain links passes through, one style is circular, while the other style is pear shaped.
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  5. #4

    Default Re: Chained SS dagger opinions

    Proof marks. Note the different angled shape to the runic design.
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  6. #5

    Default Re: Chained SS dagger opinions

    Here we have the rare "type three" skull seen here on the right (compared to the "type two" on the left) note the septum or split in the nose.
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  7. #6

    Default Re: Chained SS dagger opinions

    Another detail are the two different styles of interlocked swastika centre ramp fitting. Single or double retaining screw. But if you look closer the design is slightly different too with different shape and angles.

    Of course, as already mentioned, scabbards can be the so called "anodised" ( more correctly a blued finish ) or a black enamel painted finsh.
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  8. #7

    Default Re: Chained SS dagger opinions

    Photo of the "type one" skull, seen here on the right. Pic credit to my friend Skip as I don't own a type one chained dagger. Note the shape of the skull and the plain crossed bones with no detail to the ball joints. Also the slots for the chain links are more squared off.

    Cheers, Ade.
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  9. #8

    Default Re: Chained SS dagger opinions

    To piggyback what Bruce Petrin said on the topic, I also believe there is a so-called Type 3 chain which has some subtle feature regarding the skull that's different. The septum maybe? I think the Type 3 also has an extra screw on the center scabbard fitting & an anodized scabbard finish. Oddly enough I had one of these 10 years ago & flipped it because I didn't like the condition which was nice enough but not good enough for my taste. From what I understand they are quite scarce & can bring a premium with the right SS collector, if only I knew then what I know now.

    ADDENDUM, I must have missed the 2nd page of this thread, seems I'm repeating Ade, sorry!

  10. #9

    Default Re: Chained SS dagger opinions

    That is fine and is indeed a more scarce "type 3".

    Hi Billy, no worries! The type 3 usually has a painted scabbard and single screw ramp fitting.

    Cheers, Ade.

  11. #10

    Default Re: Chained SS dagger opinions

    A lot was touched on in the discussion. Because it has what looks like most likely nickel plated zinc fittings, my personal preference for what looks like a very nice Böker would probably be a comparable Model 1933 scabbard with nickel plated steel mounts.

    Discussed at length on the GDC some years ago (but apparently not in time to make it into the “SS dagger/sword book") is what is called different names, having a septum in the nose cavity. It is most likely the first large scale production model of the M 1936 - as seen below with images from that discussion. Made of nickel silver (roughly 2/3 copper), to its right is the (so-called) Type II in nickel silver. Followed by the (so-called) Type I having a heavily nickel plated steel type link with a slightly different design. And to its right, the last version which is the (so-called) Type II in nickel plated steel. Also, because it was discussed to a very great length on the WAF a year or two ago I feel compelled to mention that the “Karl Diebitsch” theory has absolutely no basis in fact. And is just one of those other things that were believed by collectors to be true/facts. With nothing to back up the guesses they made in the absence of actual knowledge.

    PS: With the early nickel silver chain links with the chemically blackened finish inside the links, it was not possible to do it with with the later nickel plated types. Regards to All, FP
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