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Full Rohm SS dienstdolch by Eickhorn questioned

Article about: This one is currently up for sale for \\$ 20,000- dollars. I have had several early SA Eickhorn dagger who all had their crossguard marke with the H E ( Hause Eickhorn) markings on the inside.

  1. #11

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    It's a free World, Mike....believe and enjoy what you wish.
    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

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  3. #12

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    If I'm going to spend this amount of money on a SS dagger it is not going to be a Rohm example, but instead, a Himmler Honor dagger! Even if all is well with the above example besides the replaced grip as stated already by the owner, which does decreases the value IMO, I still find it to be over-priced. That's however just my opinion as I find the Himmler daggers more intriguing although I'm sure the Full-Rohm examples are much more difficult to find.
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    E-440* Model 1933 SS Dagger with Hanger
    And this one is only 17,750!!! Somewhat overpriced too, IMO.
    Last edited by youthcollector1; 11-07-2013 at 04:29 AM.

  4. #13

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    Here is a link to the original dagger posted by gerrit. The new photos are quite interesting, especially the scabbard.
    Wittmann Militaria #35554C Full Roehm Inscription SS Dagger by Carl Eickhorn

    Add: Note that in Whitmann's photographs there doesn't appear to be a gap between the guards and blade. Could the cause of the gap found in the original photos posted be contributed to a incorrect ensemble by the current owner? And then when Whitmann received this for inspection he rensemble the dagger in the correct fashion?
    Honestly, I know little to nothing about these daggers, but the concerns expressed by Gerrit may be able to be explained away with the new photographs. It does appears Whitmann has full faith in this dagger.
    Still, being the grip is repaired/replaced I wouldn't want to spend this amount on it. I'd say closer to 15k, but than again, where are you going to find another example of this dagger with a full-Rohm inscription?
    Last edited by youthcollector1; 11-07-2013 at 04:34 AM.

  5. #14
    FRO
    FRO is offline
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    Default Fit comments

    Quote by youthcollector1 View Post
    Here is a link to the original dagger posted by gerrit. The new photos are quite interesting, especially the scabbard.
    Wittmann Militaria #35554C Full Roehm Inscription SS Dagger by Carl Eickhorn

    Add: Note in Whitmann's photographs there doesn't appear to be a gap between the guards and blade. Could the cause of the original photos posted which show the gap be contributed to a incorrect ensemble by the current owner? And then when Whitmann got his hands on it he rensemble the dagger in the correct fashion?
    I know little to nothing about these daggers, but the concerns expressed by Gerrit may be able to be explained away. It does appears Whitmann has full faith in this dagger. Still, being the grip is repaired/replaced I wouldn't want to spend this amount on it. I'd say closer the 15k, but than again, where are you going to find another example with a full-Rohm dagger?
    I took it apart to take the photos. It's quite possible I reassembled it incorrectly. I am not a collector and couldn't tell you which side goes with which with regard to the handle and the blade unless I looked again at Mr. Wittmann's photos. I'm sure he would have corrected whatever error I made in reassembly.
    I would encourage "Gerrit" or any other doubter to contact Mr. W and pose any questions you have to him. I assure you he has absolute confidence in this dagger as authentic.
    As far as the value is concerned I am told the price is well within the fair range. I'm also told the absence of Gau marks makes this dagger more rare.
    In any case I appreciate the fair comments and hope others will take the same tact until they have spoken with Mr. W regarding this.

    Thankyou,

    Mike

  6. #15

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    To make it easier for you all, here are the pictures from the site:
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    I'd like to here Larry's opinion now that better pictures have been provided. He is certainly qualified to give one, unlike me, and has nothing invested in this dagger.
    I will say it is a shame the big red one is no longer eligible, but it is what it is.

  7. #16
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    Ok, As usual there seems to be some differences of opinion on this dagger, However before I go there, I believe that most of the differences are due to the personalities involved, rather than the dagger.
    I have a little experience in this area and for what it's worth here's are my views regarding the dagger;

    1. The dedication of Ernst Rohm on the reverse of the blade shows to me a textbook example of what I expect to see on a Eickhorn Rohm dedicated SS dagger.

    2. The 'gaps' on grip to crossguard fittings on early Eickhorn daggers are well known to veteran collectors. There was something about the Eickhorn grip curing process that did not apparently come to full term before assembly to these daggers. So, grip shrinkage is not ususal on these early versions (I have seen this numerous times, also on SA Eickhorn honor daggers).

    3. Tom Wittmann, seeing this dagger in hand, would know if it's a period Rohm dagger or not. He does not require arm-chair forum photo aficionados for assistance. (although, we do like to 'help out' HA!)

    4. Pricing,,....Oh that's a good one. I can't even hope to recall the times I said 'they will never get THAt for it', or, 'I would never pay THAT for it'.

    Well my collector friends, that dagger is a real period authentic Rohm dagger. It's much rarer than a Himmler dagger, as Rohm dedications were declared by Hitler's edict to be removed. A full Rohm SS dagger is the next step down from a SS Honor dagger in the dagger world. If You have one you have 'arrived'.

    These full Rohm examples have sold, depending on condition and other factors, for over $30,000.
    So it doesn't matter where you or I would not pay $22,000 for this example as it has a replaced grip or whatever. It will sell eventually to someone who wants one and has the money to buy it and it has Wittmann's reputation with a CoA to back it.
    Throw it in the drawer, carefully, and impress your friends over a few drinks on your piece of history.

    Now here's something that took me many years to 'get my head around'; for a few it's only 'pocket change'.
    As a seller, you only have to sell it once.

    -JMO-

    -wagner-

  8. #17

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    Hi Mike..please do not take any comments or observations as a personal attack. There has been some restoration as has been seen and mentioned....but it is a matter of opinion of the daggers worth,,which is set between the buyer and the seller. I can support the buyer / seller agreement...its up to the next person to make that decision to purchase..but hard study should take place before spending that kind of money. I also support the views and comments of those have studied these types...or what has been commonly seen with this type of dagger. Not all daggers are exactly fitted the same as I mentioned above in my last post. There will be discrepancies but minute! Noticeably more so with the type collector. When any dagger is disassembled for repairs or by someone who knows nothing about them...the worth of the dagger will tend to drop in price.. depending how much was done to it. In instances of rarity daggers as an SS Rohm...the rarity and mainly "Condition"..will set the stage for its worth. Again there should be no fault placed on Tom Wittmann or the seller...no one is getting their arm twisted to buy this dagger. What we try to do here is to teach and point out..some items of question...which does not necessarily mean its repro..but for discussion purposes..for the SS collector..these are intricasies to be studied.
    Just recently a collector friend of mine revealed the foundary marks of an SA Rohm dagger bearing the same "AR" marking. I have no issues with that..and also dont have any issues of no Gau mark to be found on an SA Rohm or any Roman Numeral District stampings on SS Rohm daggers. Once a dagger is taken apart by a novice..surely there will be some bad fitting when reassembled.
    The question is buy a car with a good engine but looks like Hell on the outside or shop around a little longer to have a good engine and a nice exterior?..Although the car with a great engine and bad looks still runs great!..but thats our vanity blinding us...so..its really up to the purchaser..to study up first on any investment. What beauty looks good to some...others pass on by. The dagger above is rare to the fact that it has the full inscription..usually this is a big selling point with collectors looking for this type. One will tend to look the other way as far as the condition is concerned...but not all beauty is in the eyes of the beholder either. It all boils down to how bad you want a dagger that has some condition issues and goes all the way down to the lowly Late RZM SA dagger. This is not your fault Mike..this is not Wittmanns fault nor is it the fault of the studying eyes. We are responsible for ourselves when it comes to learning. We all know our personal preferences when it comes to acquiring these pieces of History. To each his own..and pass no blame. Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  9. #18
    FRO
    FRO is offline
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    Default Thank you gentlemen

    Quote by Larry C View Post
    Hi Mike..please do not take any comments or observations as a personal attack. There has been some restoration as has been seen and mentioned....but it is a matter of opinion of the daggers worth,,which is set between the buyer and the seller. I can support the buyer / seller agreement...its up to the next person to make that decision to purchase..but hard study should take place before spending that kind of money. I also support the views and comments of those have studied these types...or what has been commonly seen with this type of dagger. Not all daggers are exactly fitted the same as I mentioned above in my last post. There will be discrepancies but minute! Noticeably more so with the type collector. When any dagger is disassembled for repairs or by someone who knows nothing about them...the worth of the dagger will tend to drop in price.. depending how much was done to it. In instances of rarity daggers as an SS Rohm...the rarity and mainly "Condition"..will set the stage for its worth. Again there should be no fault placed on Tom Wittmann or the seller...no one is getting their arm twisted to buy this dagger. What we try to do here is to teach and point out..some items of question...which does not necessarily mean its repro..but for discussion purposes..for the SS collector..these are intricasies to be studied.
    Just recently a collector friend of mine revealed the foundary marks of an SA Rohm dagger bearing the same "AR" marking. I have no issues with that..and also dont have any issues of no Gau mark to be found on an SA Rohm or any Roman Numeral District stampings on SS Rohm daggers. Once a dagger is taken apart by a novice..surely there will be some bad fitting when reassembled.
    The question is buy a car with a good engine but looks like Hell on the outside or shop around a little longer to have a good engine and a nice exterior?..Although the car with a great engine and bad looks still runs great!..but thats our vanity blinding us...so..its really up to the purchaser..to study up first on any investment. What beauty looks good to some...others pass on by. The dagger above is rare to the fact that it has the full inscription..usually this is a big selling point with collectors looking for this type. One will tend to look the other way as far as the condition is concerned...but not all beauty is in the eyes of the beholder either. It all boils down to how bad you want a dagger that has some condition issues and goes all the way down to the lowly Late RZM SA dagger. This is not your fault Mike..this is not Wittmanns fault nor is it the fault of the studying eyes. We are responsible for ourselves when it comes to learning. We all know our personal preferences when it comes to acquiring these pieces of History. To each his own..and pass no blame. Regards Larry
    I appreciate your candid comments and take no offense. I was surfing the net a week or so ago and saw comments about dad's dagger and felt compelled to reply to those that I knew were erroneous and refer the commentators to Mr. W.
    Thanks for the fair consideration and response.
    I hope you guys enjoy your hobby.

    Mike

  10. #19
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    Default SS

    [QUOTE=FRO;1026199]"..I took it apart to take the photos. It's quite possible I reassembled it incorrectly..." I'm also told the absence of Gau marks makes this dagger more rare..."

    Mike,
    Please understand, this business, or area of collecting/authenticating is VERY meticulous and every little detail makes a difference. Sometimes a blade won't appear like it fits properly because the crossguard is backwards(which may happen easily if there is no "Gruppe" mark) or the pommel nut may be a bit too loose. I have an early SA that looked like a parts dagger at first, due to the poor fit. It turned out however, the tang was a bit bent and caused the appearance that it was not good.


    Larry has pretty much already layed out the major points of interest here, and I wish you the best in selling your item. ( I would try to keep it, and pass it on as a family heirloom , but that is, of course, up to you)

    Thanks for being gentlemanly,

    Dean.
    Last edited by Dean; 11-07-2013 at 07:34 AM.

  11. #20

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    Please do let me make some points of my own;
    1. and foremost, As stated, I am not a dagger collector.
    2. I, personally, would prefer a Himmler dagger over a Rohm. That is my own preference and doesn't speak to the value of the items or anything else.
    3. As I've said, Rohm daggers are much rarer which would result in them being more valuable.
    4. It shouldn't matter who gives an item a C.O.A, one must trust their own experience and knowledge. That said, if I wanted a second opinion, I'd go to a few trusted friends before any big named dealer who can easily be bought off, or wrong as nobody can be always right. Such has happened far too many times before with these C.O.A.
    5. If it sells, Great. I have no investment in this so I doesn't matter to me. I will say this though, just because a item eventually sells doesn't make it authentic or worth the asking price. There's an idiot born every minute, such is apparent as I've seen collectors buy horrible fantasy items with a C.O.A(Eva's undies ) for much more than the asking price of this dagger.
    6. Again, Wittmann's reputation and his C.O.A to back it means little to nothing to me no matter how much I respect his opinion. In the end, you must be completely satisfied with the item.
    7. As a seller you may only have to sell a item once, but what you sell stays with you for a lifetime.( I'm not speaking of this dagger or Mr. Whitmann, who I actually find to be one of the best daggers guys, if not the best.)
    8. Some may find this dagger to be worth 20-30k, but I don't. As Larry stated, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The fact that it has been taken down and has replaced parts makes this dagger A Lot less attractive to me, thus, I wouldn't pay the asking price. I look at this like I would an SS Allgemeine NCO uniform in good plus condition. If the insigina is period applied, I'd gladly pay 10k, but if restored, I wouldn't pay more than 5k. Some people may, but I wouldn't!
    Oh, so all know Mr. Wittmann has had fakes on his site too, most recent, a reproduction belt buckle. So as they say, always post before buying.
    Now with that said, my only objective for posting was to help the OP in his search. Wasn't saying the OP, or anyone for that matter shouldn't buy this dagger. I also wasn't saying whether it's real or fake, just that the gap may be due to a incorrect reassembly.
    Thanks

    Mike, good luck with your sell. Like Dean, I would pass it down to my kids, but I love this stuff and understand why you would want to sell it.
    Last edited by youthcollector1; 11-07-2013 at 09:00 AM. Reason: Misinterpreted prior post

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