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My father's SS-Dienstdolch Modell 1936

Article about: Hi My dads dagger has remained hidden for 65 years, he fetched it to the uk in 1946, he was a tank driver in the derbyshire/staffordshire yeomenry, later the Inns of court reg. stationed nea

  1. #11

    Default re: My father's SS-Dienstdolch Modell 1936

    Ok....let me see if I can explain it a bit better.

    Prima Facie, the fact that the crossguard on the M-36 is from and SA dagger, implies that the dagger, in and of itself is a "parts dagger". How much of it is from different parts? I could not tell you because it would involve various forms of invasive "surgery" if you will, and I DO NOT adocate such activities. It's not a "legit" dagger in the collecting worlds interpretation of what "legitimate is". I don't want to sound negative, but there is a number of dimensions, elements and criteria we use to determine various properties of a specific collectible.....$$value$$, conditional element, scarcity via the item, manufacturer, # produced, and so forth. SS dagger collectors are amoungst the PICKIEST collectors out there..for good reason. With high dollar items, like SS collectibles, comes alot of potential for fraud. Manipulated items, parts pieces, all out reproduction pieces, bait and sitch, and so on. SS itmes have been produced by contemporary fakers since the 1950s. Even then, SS items were the most sought after collectibles by returning GIs, and so on. Simply stated, that explains why SS collectors are so meticulous and picky about every item they consider buying. There is just soooo much potential to be ripped off in the SS field.

    I would strenuously urge you to keep the dagger as a family heirloom, as the intrinsic value is MUCH higher than the monetary value. You can't place a price on family history, etc. My uncles stuff brought home from France and Germany is worth 10's of thousands of dollars...SS stuff, helmest swords, crosses, etc. That said, I would never dream of selling it. Ever.

    It implies the dagger has been apart, at least once. Here comes the issue with this dagger. Say you decided you needed to free up some cash because you needed a down payment for a new car. You look around, and you see that the average M-36 dagger is selling for $5,000 +/- give or take. You hope the sale of your M-36 will bring it that kind of money. When you go to sell it, 99% of dagger collectors who collect SS edged weapons are going to tell you that the piece is incorrect and is a parts dagger. As such, collectors will probably offer you $1800 or something in the ball park, more of less. Depending on what and if any other parts are mismatched from other SS daggers, M-33's or M-36's, it will likewise effect the overall value.

    You WILL never find GAU marked crossguards on SS daggers. ONLY on Sturmabteilung and NSKK daggers.

    This is the point Ade and I are trying to make (Ade's knowledgeable on SS daggers..much more so than I am since SS is not my specialty- I don't collect, nor ever will collect SS items, with the exception of family bring homes). While one could argue that the pieces are all real, which I would agree they appear to be, they did NOT all come from the same M-36 dagger. Again, this is prima facie because we can see the daggers crossguard , and we KNOW where the part comes from.

    That's the point we're trying to make. Sure it looks pretty. Sure it makes a nice display piece for your collection. But, when it comes time to sell, should you ever decide to, be prepared for a collector to break the same news to you that both Ade and I just did. And they won't offer you the $5,000 often seen on the sale of '36s.

    I encourage you to post it in the SS dagger section on germandaggers.com. You will learn everything you'll need to learn about your particular dagger. It will be very helpful knowing what is what, so that when the time comes, you know what a fair value is, and so you don't get screwed by and unscrupulous collector offering your $450 because it's a parts dagger. It's worth more than that, as is the chain along assuming the chain has not been messed with. So post it over there. You'll be glad you did down the road, in the future.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by Swordfish; 06-07-2010 at 09:30 PM.

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  3. #12

    Default re: My father's SS-Dienstdolch Modell 1936

    Quote by Swordfish View Post
    ...I encourage you to post it in the SS dagger section on germandaggers.com. You will learn everything you'll need to learn about your particular dagger. It will be very helpful knowing what is what, so that when the time comes, you know what a fair value is, and so you don't get screwed by and unscrupulous collector offering your $450 because it's a parts dagger. It's worth more than that, as is the chain along assuming the chain has not been messed with. So post it over there. You'll be glad you did down the road, in the future.

    Hope this helps.
    Yes, I´ve been read some threads ´bout Gau-marked SS-dagger´s in GDC !



    SS . M 36 Chain dagger Gau markings - Topic Powered by Social Strata

    missing item - Topic Powered by Social Strata

    M36 Dagger - Topic Powered by Social Strata

    SS Dagger chained authenticity - Topic Powered by Social Strata

    SS dagger value? Help..newbie. - Topic Powered by Social Strata

  4. #13

    Default re: My father's SS-Dienstdolch Modell 1936

    If that is accurate, I stand absolutely corrected. It appears there has been some debate on the authenticity of gau marked pieces.

    I'm going to speak with an SS collector, who'm I would consider an "expert"..and there are VERY few experts in the whole field of collecting.

    I'll relay what he has to say. I absolutely will trust his opinion.

    If this is right, forget the $1800..move it up to the $5K bracket....still though, the intrinsice value is worth much more than a $5K in greenbacks!!

    I'm curious then why would T-1, '36 be gau stamped, as opposed to M33s? I've never seen either with a stamping, but perhaps they both exist. Perhaps left over stock from SA/NSKK manufacturing utilized during the manufacturing process?

    If someone has some conrete info, please, by all means chime in.

    In the meantime, i'm gonna' send an email to a pal.
    t

  5. #14

    Default re: My father's SS-Dienstdolch Modell 1936

    I started a thread in the SS section on GD. Hopefully some answers will be forthcoming. I also emailed a friend.

    I just don't know why and what purpose then a gau stamp would have on a 36..specifically on Type 1 chains. Why not on 33s?. Why not on Type 2, 36's? It's interesting. It doesn't make any sense to me, but then again, i'm not an SS collector. I guess a skeptical collector would say that Atwood put these together.

    Stay tuned to stay tuned.

  6. #15

    Default re: My father's SS-Dienstdolch Modell 1936

    Some pics of the dagger before, and, after cleaning it.

    Several years ago I´ve got this dagger from the hands of the son of an departed veteran of the Schutzstaffel.
    The dagger was well greased ...

    The dagger was hidden in a metal-canister for coffee in the cellar of the veteran´s house and was found while breaking up the household.

    I know, this is not a text-book dagger, but it is, as I mentioned before, a legit-one !
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #16

    Default re: My father's SS-Dienstdolch Modell 1936

    I want to publicly say, i'll eat crow!!

    After some research, some discussion and some emailing, I now will admit i'm a believer and I too think these are 100%. Being that I don't consider myself an SS collector, my experience with 33's and 36's is limited.

    Clearly these are real, and are not parts daggers.

    I wonder why though. Let my put this out there:
    Why do we only see these gua marked crossguards on M-36 pattern SS daggers? Even further, why do we only see these gau marked crossguards on Type 1, M-36 daggers? It's very strange.

    This is what I suspect happened. By 1936, SA dagger production had fallen sharply. AS such, some manufacturers, or sub-contractos, had stocks of pre-stamped, gau marked SA crossguards laying around. They were sold, and later incorporated into the production of the M36 dagger. That's frankly the only plausible reason I can think of.

    It's really interesting and I guess there is some debate in the hobby about these. But it seems just too many came out fresh from vets in Germany, the US, UK, etc. There is no way these are Atwood pieces. I am a believer, and I learned something, which is always nice in this hobby.

    Oh yea, Reibert, nice dagger. You did well!!

    Tom

  8. #17

    Default re: My father's SS-Dienstdolch Modell 1936

    I think you might be right, Tom !

    There may have been a lot of pre-made 'leftover' SA parts about..........
    Regards,


    Steve.

  9. #18
    ?

    Default Great Discussion: my father's SS chained dagger

    Great Discussion: my father's SS chained dagger(!)

    [I agree, that I also would Not sell it, if this can be prevented.]

    I'd like to 'tip my hat' to everyone in this Discussion! It's not very often that open-mindedness prevails - but we all learn in the process. Congratulations to all parties.

    The referenced SS Dagger (& Gau marked Nickel-Silver Crossguard) is a concrete illustration of the means & procedures which some TR Dagger Makers used.

    I believe that it all goes back to "WHY" that the 'Transitional' SS - SA & Other Daggers, were manufactured in the 1st place. My take on it is the following:
    (1) ...there was a 1935 published edict / notice that effective that date, no more Strategic Metals could be used by manufacturers. Nickel-Silver (of which the early Crossguards were made) was one of the 'prohibited' metals which were listed. [I forgot the exact date off-hand, but posted it on the "TeNo Homebase" thread.]
    (2) ...Dagger Manufacturers who had a large supply of Nickel-Silver crossguards on hand, could [and Did] continue to use them - until the supply was used up. [i.e. Note the finding of Transitional marked Blades, but with Nickel-Silver Crossguards. It was a matter of supply on hand - & the demand for additional Dagger types, which used this shaped Crossguard - SS - SA - NSKK.]
    (3) ...We see the same thing take place for Visor Eagles & Mützenkranz - in that they were Nickel-Silver until mid 1935 & then made of an alternate metal [usu. Aluminum] after that date.
    (4) ...However, as with the Crossguards, manufacturers also had a supply of Nickel-Silver Eagles & Mützenkranz, which they continued to sell. [I have documentation of this taking place for the TeNo, and I 'believe' that it is also true for other branches.]
    (5) ...Back to the "Gau Marked Nickel-Silver Crossguard" - another partial explanation is that Daggers were sent to the manufacturer for repairs & upgrading. This aspect is documented in TW's books & others - when blades were repaired, trade marks were repaired (& in a few documented cased - replaced!), etc. At the same time, it is not unreasonable to postulate that Crossguards were also replaced. Thus a supply of potential 'previously-used' [as in the Gau Marked Nickel-Silver SS] crossguards were on hand in the bins at the Manufacturer. They could [& apparently were] used for 'new' Daggers, as the demand for these Daggers increased.
    (6) ...Also, when we look at photos of, and examples from, the parts & supply rooms of Solingen Dagger Makers after May 8, 1945, it is crystal clear that not much was thrown away!

    Thus in these areas, there was a 'mix & match' on the part of Manufacturers, who as good businessmen, wanted to use up their supply of parts (be it Nickel-Silver Crossguards or Eagles) before making (or having made for them) additional items, in a Non Strategic metal.

    It all seems to 'make some sense' when we look at it from a documented time-line; a historical perspective; and verified examples of the items. ...Txs, ...Dave/dblmed
    Last edited by dblmed; 06-11-2010 at 09:15 AM. Reason: sp

  10. #19

    Default re: My father's SS-Dienstdolch Modell 1936

    Dave,
    That's a very valid point. I had not thought about restrictions placed on various strategic metals as early as '36, but you're right. I simply but 1+3 together and came up with 4 by assuming it must have simply been attrubuted to excess stocks of SA/NSKK crossguards remaining since SA dagger production had sharply fallen by '36.

    What nobody has postulated a real theory for is why these were predominantly found on Type-1's. Ther's clearly something to it, but to the point, I havn't been able to find much explaining this. You would think that these stocks of crossguards would have been available en masse through that year, to a variety of manufacturers. It's interesting.

    This is a very good discussion, and certainly a learning experience..even for me, a non-SS collector, per se.

  11. #20

    Default re: My father's SS-Dienstdolch Modell 1936

    Are you guys following the discussion on GDC?? I had inquired about the "Why" of the gau marked "type-1 chain" '36 pieces. It's a thread worth following.

    '36s Gau'd and Why? - Topic Powered by Social Strata

    Gotta' love the discussions that always pop up in the SS section...heated some times at that!! Maybe that's one of the reasons I don't collect SS...actually I just don't care for SS items.

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