My father's SS-Dienstdolch Modell 1936

[dblmed]

Yeah Swordfish,

Yes, the GDC 'Dagger Boys' do go after one another at times, in dissecting the details & "what if's" of the TR Dagger / Blade world. There is a trainload of knowledge & hands-on experience about the subject amongst the group. [Although they are often at different ends of the train, Engine or Caboose!]

But, it is overall a good thing, as discussions are usually accompanied by actual examples, stressing one position or another. That's what the Forums are all about - the exchange of information on a national / global scale. From all of this, a general concensus can 'often' be found, or at least 2 camps - each with their database & opinions on the subject. ... Dave/dblmed

[Swordfish]

Dave-
I absolutely concur with your sentiments. I always enjoy seeing Fred get into the mix. I have always respected his opinion with his background in metalrgy..i'm also partial since he's a sword guy like me, his meticulous approach, and the fact that he often has digressing opinions. It's always a jolly good time to watch the threads as they burn for week on end..the Hunlein thread comes to mind

Tom

[dblmed]

Hi Tom,

I agree fully!
"IF" we knew ALL that there was to know about TR Collecting [& the vast amount of Collectibles within it] - then just we'd be a bunch of simple Gatherers, instead of Collectors.

The hunt for knowledge is as important as are the special TR Items which we are fortunate enough to find along the way. As I have matured [i.e. aged] in TR collecting, I've found that searching through period fotos, documents, Magazines & other printed materials, provides a historical insight into how it actually was vs. how it was supposed to be. Can't learn enough about those areas which interest us!

I do hope that this very special SS Chained Dagger does stay in the family. What a wonderful history & provenance! ... Dave / dblmed

[Swordfish]

Well said my friend.

I was surprised Dave that you were the only one to touch on the limitations placed on the various strategic metals. Certainly it's a very plausible cause..it's funy how tertiary factors can have big impacts on the various item or commodity being discussed. We as collectors often overlook what we perceive to be small detials, when in all reality, they are not so small.

Do you have a copy of the metal limitations order or know and address where I can find it? I don't have a copy of it and it would be nice to have for future reference.

Thanks,
Tom

[dblmed]

Hi Tom,

I was reading the book “TR Aguillettes” where the author, Wilm. Saris was discussing the types of metals used to make “Tips” – & on Page 161, Footnote # 54, I saw that per:

‘Reichsangzeiger’ Nr. 101 dated May 2, 1935, with order Nr. 26 dated [effective] April 24, 1935." …Here, specifically, the forbidden materials are listed.” This referred to Neusilber (Nickled-Silver / Nickel-Silver), Copper and others.

Then, this information sunk in & it HIT me with a SHOCK!
THIS was the information that I was looking for, in order to understand the WHY? & WHEN? that the use of solid “Nickel Silver” parts / items stopped - & - the use of Aluminum (& other substitutes) began. As discussed on this link:

TeNo Insignia - Page 2 - World War Militaria

On page 3 of the referenced thread, Wilm. Saris stated:

“… Dave, In one post you put the question: about when Aluminum was introduced for the insignia?

In the "Verordnungsblatt der TeNo", nr. 3 from March 1935 the material mentioned was neusilber, [i.e. Nickel-Silver] its manufacturer being Assmann. The wreath also was from that material.

In the "Verordnungsblatt der TeNo", nr.6 from June 1936 the material was now described as being Aluminum.

In fact this [same] procedure one can also find with Belt-Buckles. In my extensive article about Belt-Buckles from the HJ, published in the "Military Advisor" nr. 1 from 2001 and nr.2 from the same year, I do explain also about the material development.
• • • In 1933 - the buckle was from neusilber-sheet [Nickel-Silver] material;
• • • In 1935 - the buckles were manufactured from SM-steel
(due to the Reichsanzeiger-order [of April 24, 1935] and one started experimenting with other materials);
• • • In early 1936 - various manufacturers proudly announced the “new” Aluminum and light-weight materials buckles. …”

Tom,

With TR Swords, maybe you have observed this same phenomenon of progressive change: solid “Nickel Silver” – to – Aluminum (& other substitute metal) for the guards & grip metal parts? The change in the type of metal used - impacted ANY item made from the 'strategic / restricted' metals. I don't have access to the "Der Klinge" archives, but it should also have this announcement, at about the same time. … Best, …Dave / dblmed

[Walkwolf]

Dave,
That's a very valid point. I had not thought about restrictions placed on various strategic metals as early as '36, but you're right. I simply but 1+3 together and came up with 4 by assuming it must have simply been attrubuted to excess stocks of SA/NSKK crossguards remaining since SA dagger production had sharply fallen by '36.

What nobody has postulated a real theory for is why these were predominantly found on Type-1's. There's clearly something to it, but to the point, I havn't been able to find much explaining this. You would think that these stocks of crossguards would have been available en masse through that year, to a variety of manufacturers. It's interesting.

This is a very good discussion, and certainly a learning experience..even for me, a non-SS collector, per se.

I like the 'strategic metals' idea as well. The overall quality of
nickel-silver may have been a factor in why they were used,
particularly if makers had reduced the output of SA's and
began producing more SS models during this time.

[Walkwolf]

It looks as though Dave has nailed it..........Good work !

[Swordfish]

Dave,
Thank you for the 411 on the issue order. I don't have a copy of Wilms book. This bit is great:

"‘Reichsangzeiger’ Nr. 101 dated May 2, 1935, with order Nr. 26 dated [effective] April 24, 1935." …Here, specifically, the forbidden materials are listed.” This referred to Neusilber (Nickled-Silver / Nickel-Silver), Copper and others"

I thank you for that. Exactly what I was looking for.

As it relates to production of various weapons, certainly strategic metals came into play..though I had thought later toward the end of the 30's with the impending war...post-annexation and the '38 liberation of the Sudeten. I was taken aback at first with the suggestion of limitations placed on varoius strategic metals that early..'35, and the potential implication on M36 patterns. I hadn't even considered that as possibility..but I think it's a pretty darn'd good theory. It's interesting following along with the discussion and listening to the various plausible theories that are being put out there..all of which seem very plausible to me. One of the other areas of collecting which really illustrate the metal limitations would have to be the various Wehrmacht war qualification badges.

As sabers go, most were produced in the mid to late 30's then into the early 40's with the massive and rapid expansion of the Wehrmacht at large. The vast majority of saber hilts were cast in brass, wtih some in aluminum..which I would imagine was severely limited based on Luftwaffe needs for aluminum in the construction of aircraft. All saber blades were ferrous- at least to the best of my experience and understanding..i've never come accross any otherwise. They were all a composite steel of sorts, as were their entire scabbards. Their blades were all plated in a heavy nickel composite of sorts. From dating my various early to mid Weimar Era Heer sabers vs. my NS Era Heer sabers, there appears to be relative parity accross the board with respect to manufacture and the use of various matels for the components.

I'm not sure what year the last patterns of Heer sabers were being manufactured in the Ruhr. But certainly we know by virtue of these collectibles that saber production was utilizing at least some strategic metals which were on the limitations list.

....I should add i'm not up on the metalgry and component manufacturing as I should be. That's one of the reasons I really dig Fred P's analysis of edged weapons since he has a back ground in metal and manufacturing. I wasn't a man of science..I studied PR and communications undergrad and law post-grad..
Tom