This is my new Gottlieb Hammesfahr Ground Röhm!

[Larry C]

I have to agree with Title King ..as I have never encountered SS dagger grips to be laquered..but more use of a high gloss paint.
I would also say where TK has pointed out on certain areas where the grip may have been worn down removing such gloss.

If this were laquered ..it was not done during the period.
The SS grips were either painted or dyed.

TitleKing is one of the forums advanced collectors and Im sure at some point he will post a few of his collection.
Yet at your finger tips is the forums search engine and all within also this SS sub forum..the many threads of varied SS daggers.

check out this pinned thread Post #2 scroll down a bit and you will see minty SS daggers. Look at the details ..enjoy the read through this forum.

Finest Collections from the Finest of collectors

Regards Larry

[Agitatorn]

Martin! Good luck with the dagger hunt! i dont have any SS daggers, you probably already know but check Military Antiques Stockholm. last update they got two SS
there.

Cheers

[Dark Knight]

Hi Title King, Larry and all others!

First of all I have to apologize for my late answer, had kind of a busy weekend. Then, Title King, just to clarify, I didn't write you were inexperienced. But, on the other hand, with 14 scattered posts in different forums since joining in 2018, and knowing absolutely nothing else about you when you started reviewing my dagger, I don't know why I immediately should assume you were an expert on SS daggers? But, since Larry now informed me that you are an experienced collector I guess I have to take his word for it, since Larry obviously has been around for a while.

Do all handles have the same finish?

Now, I am by no means an expert myself, but I am a bit surprised about the very confident statements from both of you gentlemen that no SS-daggers were ever produced with a glossy finish to the handle and that such a finish definitely has to be post war. My experience, being a newbie, but after having looked at a couple of hundred daggers for sale or sold by reputable dealers on line, is that it seems fairly obvious that the handle finishes vary quite a lot between different daggers.

Just to pick one dealer, Lakeside Trader, have a look at the Ground Röhm by Herder and compare it with the Fürth dedication Gottlieb Hammesfahr. Two completely different finishes to the handle. The Herder, dull and non-reflective, the Hammesfahr, glossy and reflective. I think actually even more glossy than my own Hammesfahr.



Then, pick another dealer, Wittmann Antiques, and have a look at the RZM M7/80 1197/38 SS (dull) and compare it to the earlier RZM 121/34 SS (glossy).



Have a look at the Hammesfahr sold by Phoenix Investments. Quite glossy that one too.



I mean, since everything else (almost) vary between daggers and makers and time, eagles (neck hight, beak pointing somewhere, point behind head), SS-runes (runes going all the way to the ring, positioning), handle shapes (the narrow Herders), crossguards (Böker crossguards) etc, why would not the finish on the handles also vary? I find it hard to believe that all the different handle makers used exactly the same dying process resulting in exactly the same end finish.

My conclusion is that there seems to be quite a large degree of freedom to the handle finishes on SS-daggers sold by reputable dealers, and that daggers with more or less glossy handles are pretty well represented out there. Now, are all of these post-war lacquered?

What happens when a glossy handle gets worn?

Now, to the next topic. You were both worried that the wear on some places on the handle of my Hammesfahr was an indication that the handle was post-war lacquered. I’m not sure about the logic of this, since a worn finish, in my world, would be an indication that the original finish (that is worn) is older, rather than newer. Otherwise it wouldn’t be worn right? And, if someone had tried to remove a supposedly lacquered finish, in order to “restore” it to its original finish, why would that only be done to parts of the handle, and those parts happens to be the parts that are most exposed to wear? IMHO it doesn’t makes sense.

The natural explanation as I see it is of course that if you have a glossy handle from start and that gets worn, it gets duller. If you have a dull handle from start and that gets worn, it will still be dull.

Have a look at the pictures below of glossy handles with wear. The first one is the Hammesfahr Fürth dagger for sale at Lakeside Trader. It has the same difference in duller and glossier areas as mine and the Robert Klaas have. Circles are areas with very high gloss. The second one is a Schuttlehöfer for sale with Wittmann. Not as glossy as the Hammesfahr but still with clearly visible wear on the ridge and on the lower ridge going down to the lower crossguard. These are just a couple of examples that I could find with no effort.



What high-pixel photography does for detail?

Finally, I read and agree with someone who wrote that with modern mobile phone cameras you could almost see the pimples on the eagle’s face and maybe that should be kept in mind when comparing a picture of a dagger photographed (and saved) in very high resolution with a picture of a dagger in lower resolution. In my case it was also photographed below the strong kitchen LED-lights that probably enhanced differences in finish even more.

Finally, it would of course be very interesting to hear other collectors’ experiences on the topics above. I’m climbing the learning curve!

Martin

[JRMeda]

On certain SA early trademark manufactures, it was common for the edged weapon firm to apply a coat of clear lacquer over their grips as standard practice. And example of this would be the SA's produced by Bickel, Haenel, HACO and others.

When it comes to SS daggers I've also seen a protective coating on a fair amount of grips over the years. Those which show it have been preserved incredibly well. My belief that some of these were done during the period at the request of the edged weapon owner, or performed by by the dagger owner himself. And certainly some grips encountered have been enhanced post WWII.

On a side note I've seen were Ren Wax has been used to coat an SS handle to add a protection to the wood. Though it can be removed, I would suggest against using this product on any wood grips. The reason is that it gives the handle an unnatural sheen and gloss which is contrary to the usual appearance that they have.

[Title King]

"Yeah, well, it’s already deemed a decent, correct and good dagger by two of the more experienced and active members on the forum, so I think I’ll go with that"

I don't believe the finish on the dagger starting this thread is original, and yes, each dagger is unique and yes, the appearance and finish of the wood on different daggers varies greatly. The type of finish shown on yours is not what I would call period whatsoever, but rather an attempt to darken the grip if I was forced to guess. Just as important is the light color near the eagles wing where some of this finish is removed it appears. A closer picture may clear that up though....

Although I know how this goes once you have dug in as you have so to each their own, enjoy it!

[Dark Knight]

On certain SA early trademark manufactures, it was common for the edged weapon firm to apply a coat of clear lacquer over their grips as standard practice. And example of this would be the SA's produced by Bickel, Haenel, HACO and others.

When it comes to SS daggers I've also seen a protective coating on a fair amount of grips over the years. Those which show it have been preserved incredibly well. My belief that some of these were done during the period at the request of the edged weapon owner, or performed by by the dagger owner himself. And certainly some grips encountered have been enhanced post WWII.

On a side note I've seen were Ren Wax has been used to coat an SS handle to add a protection to the wood. Though it can be removed, I would suggest against using this product on any wood grips. The reason is that it gives the handle an unnatural sheen and gloss which is contrary to the usual appearance that they have.

Thank you very much JR for the interesting facts. So, you could almost argue that a coated dagger back then was like the Rolls Royce of daggers, and if the dagger owner had it coated himself, maybe also a sign that he cared little extra about his dagger?

And I'm sure that if they did it to the SA's they probably also did it with the SS's.

Martin