Need help in locating list of "L" series RZM manufacturer's of SA/SS scabbard strap ring hangers.

[w4uvv]

I just acquired a black leather strap ring hanger marked "RZM L2/371" for one of my SS daggers. Can anyone provide me a website link or other source where I can obtain a list of "L" series RZM manufacturers of these type of items? I thought I had such a list but I cannot locate it. Thanks.

John

[Lakesidetrader]

John I believe that Fishers reference provides such a list.
There is also a very good source of RZM reference on GDC that is public. GermanDaggers.com - Forums powered by UBB.threads™
It's on the right side of the website.

[w4uvv]

Tnx for the reply. I will check GDC and the sub links on the right side of the forum link as you suggested. I am having trouble trying to relate to "Fisher's reference". You are the only one who has responded to my post here. Is Fisher one of the references in the GDC? If not is it someone on this forum? Please clarify for me. Tnx.

John

[Larry C]

Hi John ,,the Author who Is John Fisher has put out a 9 volume set on every attribute of German Metal Edged types and weaponery..including producers and the RZM offices.These references are a must for the serious collector and researcher. Unfortunatley John Fisher recently passed away due to a long Illness..and I do not know if these books are obtainable..or if his family took over the business..and is still selling them.
These books can be found on dealer sites..mine I obtained from the gentleman above Paul Lakesidetrader from his site.

The GDC only shows the RZM department " M " for all Metal works..I did not see Department L for leather on that site, I can provide the Identity of "RZM L2/371 for you if needed.
Below is a list of the departments in which the RZM has included

More of the RZM description can be found on the following pages of Tom Wittmanns SS book… pgs 159-161
Organizations that were subject to the RZM were of political status,,…SA- SS –NSKK and the HJ, ( for reasons unknown the NPEA was not affected )
The letter "M" seen before a number is a metal license prefix. Listed below are 12 prefixes of materials controlled by the RZM.
M/1-Insignia
M/2-Sub-contractors
M/3-Symbols and emblems
M/4-Belts & buckles
M/5-Uniform accessories
M/6-Aluminum products
M/7-Daggers
M/7h- Dagger sub-contractors ( not seen )
M/8-Metal accessories
M/9-Tinnies
M/10-Musical instruments
M/11-NSDAP Long service medals
M/12-NSDAP "Miniature" Long service medals

Included below are the other prefixes also pertaining to the RZM control.

RZM - A Ausrustung / Outfitting
RZM -B Baumwolle / Cotton and fabrics
RZM - D Dienstkleidung / Service clothing
RZM - E Einzelhandel / Retail trade
RZM - G Grosshandel / Wholesale
RZM - H Handelsvertreter / Trade representatives
RZM - K Kleidereinzelhandel / Retail clothing
RZM - L Leder / Leather
RZM - M Metall / Metal
RZM - V Verkaufstellen / Retail outlets...also worked in conjunction with RZM E
RZM - W Wolle / Wool

To reiterate ..these invaluable exhaustive in content Solingen Steel Bibles can be found only when they appear for resale on a dealer site..ebay ..etc. You just have to keep your eyes open..like anything else we search for in this hobby..they are not readily available on store shelves. I hope that this may of helped you some what..and will identify the RZM L2/371 maker for you asap.

Regards Larry

My apologies for not seeing this post and replying so late..but Thankful for Paul bringing it to the top for discussion.

[Wilhelm Saris]

From my files, and from the RZM manufacturing regulations from 1938:



close-up for 371:

[Larry C]

Thankyou for Wim Saris in providing the original source documentation, on this L2/371 producer : EG Luener / SA Hanger straps.

Department "L" is comprised of 10 sub departments #2 being " Maker of leather articles "

Sub department
1. Leather for Uniform outfitting
2. Leather articles
3. Leather field packs
4. Master saddlers
5. Belts and straps
6. Crash helmets
7. Shoes
8. Master shoe makers
9. Leather trade
10. Hat accessories

Each sub department has each producer and RZM assigned number listed

Sub department 4 being the largest in leather listing at 2951 producers ( some within this scope are undocumented )
this department just did not only produce saddles..and did more than just that,. with other leather articles..of were sub contracted to do so.
There would of been more horses than tanks if that were the case

Regards Larry

[Wilhelm Saris]

Hello Larry. It is Leuner not Luener!!

Gruppe L1 = Lederfabriken. In 1938 the highest number was 53;
Gruppe L2 = Lederzeugfabriken. In 1938 tHe highest number was 2432, but many numbers in between already were cancelled as lots of permissions were withdrawn;
Gruppe L3 = Tornisterfabriken. In 1938 the highest number was 283;
Gruppe L4 = Sattlermeister. In 1938 the highest number was 2468 (I believe, but again many were withdrawn in between);
Gruppe L5 = Riemenfabriken. In 1938 the highest number was 105;
Gruppe L6 = Sturzhelmfabriken. In 1938 the highest number was 12, but the numbers 4, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 11 already were withdrawn. The complete list is included in volume 4 from the series "Headgear of Hitler's Germany", page 375. The highest number mentioned in the RZM magazines was 21. Also 13 and 14 were mentioned, but no others;
Gruppe L7 = Schuhfabriken. In 1938 the highest number was 182;
Gruppe L8 = I do not have that list;
Gruppe L9 = Lederhandel. No numbers were included in 1938;
Gruppe L10 = Mützenzutaten. No numbers were included.

With the RZM handbook from 1935 L7 was mentioned, but no numbers. The groups L8, L9 and L 10 then were not included at all.

[w4uvv]

Larry, thanks for the helpful reply. I printed it and will place it in my appropriate items provenance documentation binders. One never can have enough RZM documentation. I was not familiar with the author John Fisher. It seems I tend to have items which require "the must book to have about....". For example, I have a few Nazi desireable helmets. Recently, I had an opportunity to acquire some early vintage visor caps from a fellow Nazi collector who specializes in the "coffeecan" kepi visor caps. He was parting with a few items in his collection in order to purchase more expensive coffeecan visor caps. With great reluctance one he parted with included a Luftwaffe Maritime Air Sea Rescue civilian employee visor cap.

Initially, I had difficulty locating information on this visor cap which, as I later discovered, was sourced to the "Defending the Reich" book. It still is available but the author died about 10 years ago. His book seemed to be the only definitive source on the subject. Although helpful, I wish it had more of an in depth discussion. Before locating the subject discussions on a couple of website forums, I spent about $90 to purchase the book mainly as a provenance reference for this vintage Air/Sea Rescue visor cap.

Meanwhile, I also "had to have" the Morgan/McGuire WW2 German headgear books for my early Political Leaders and other visor caps I recently had acquired. So far this year I have spent about $200 on books which are great provenance references. If anyone should doubt whatever, I open one of the provenance reference books to the appropriate page(s) for the individual to view for themselves.

Thanks for listing the RZM control type descriptions. I sight checked my SA/SS daggers/belt strap connectors. Most do not have metal maker's mark stampings and a few do. Attached are three pictures two of which appear to be the same manufacturer based on the "stickman" like graphic and "DRGM" stamp. One additionally has a "M5/8" stamp. The remaining one is stamped "M5/74" and the letters "O|C" centered inside a diamond design stamp. If you could provide me the manufacturer's name and town location for these belt hanger clips I would appreciate it.

John

[rbminis]

The two "stickmen" are Assmann and Co. and the "O/C" is Overhoff & Cie. Ludenscheid.
Ralph.

[w4uvv]

Wilhelm,

Thanks for posting the L2/371 manufacturer's name and town. The problem for me is I do not understand most German Gothic letters/text. Could you please post the
L2/371 information in English?

John