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Open discussion about SS transitional Daggers by Helbig, are they genuine or 1960s fakes?

Article about: Gents I would like to hear your opinions about a transitional Helbig SS dagger: did they produce this dagger post or pre WW2 I have seen some sold by big sellers , even those who wrote the b

  1. #11

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    My quote from a thread in the Third Reich ring forum..on the topic of an SA ring..this too can also apply to the authenticity of this particular dagger :

    My Quote : A total loss of identity...are those Third Reich items....such as rings ,,knives,, medals uniforms etc......which a great amount indirectly played key roles in Germanys history. Those unrelated party items..which seem now to surface...is under a judge and jury..because we do not have enough evidence of its existence. This ring could be one of them...cant prove it though..and then the door shuts behind it leaving it to exist under a false identity...Real or fake ?

    The hobbyist / collector..has only scratched the surface..in the History of the Third Reich. Many conclusions like science are found under "theory " ....and the more solid proof is what documentation survived the war..and the Veterans of all countries who fought this World War.
    These artifacts..deserve to share in the same light in collections..as the well known artifacts...but again can not be allowed to enter..of possibly being under another identity. So they end up at a Flea market somewhere...possibly worth thousands...and reality lets them live as beggars...for $40. ( End Quote )

    My question why is it we see these Rare finds and are totally beaten up? Why is the dagger half decent on the outside..and the blade quite tragic? The dated hanger means nothing IMO..and the scabbard is late period. It seems too that the logo is extra high upon the blade. BUT..as I said before..these one of a kind wonders and as Fred put it fake upon a fake..will cause great doubt in the collecting circles.

    Some bio data on Helbig:
    RZM permit was issued in 1935 under the number RZM M7/73

    SS Double proofed codes include 1163 /38SS & 1163/39SS.

    Any further proof would be necessary of a take down. IMO
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

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  3. #12
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    This one is in better shape and listed for 4295-- dollars at MiltaryCollectiblesInc
    Regards,
    Ger
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  4. #13
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    Opinions about a similar thread on GDC, all about Helbig Transitionals:
    i quote Rick:
    These have got to right.I place an ad in our local penny power or big nickel (free paper you can pick up in 7-11 type stores and other business) wanting to buy german war relics.Got a call last week from a guy whos dad was in WW2 in europe.His mom (vets wife) is 92 and need to pay some bill. I drove to the town he lives in (about 20 minutes from me)and he showed me a M35 or 40 single decal army helmet a ww1 black wound badge a ww2 black wound badge a party badge a couple tinnies a 10-12 inch Daf aluminiun cog gear emblem, a fairbern sykes commondo knife and this Transitional Helbig ss dagger.Im 99.9 per cent sure this stuff was brought back by his dad.We haggled for a week and we settled on a price and i will pick this stuff up next week and will show the photos of it.
    I quote Dave:
    Helbig is not the only one. The David Malsch transitional SS daggers are just as bad but not seen as often.
    They both come from Steinbach and seem to have many common characteristics which might indicate common suppliers. I looked at a couple of them in detail and with the exception of the blade etch, the components all looked correct for the time frame.
    The blade etch and assembly were poor.

  5. #14
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    This one is posted on GDC in another thread, William Kramer replied possitive
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  6. #15

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    The parts, from what can be seen look authentic and the blades look genuine and show good crossgrain, but I'm wondering if they were blanks that were found in the factories post war with enough stocks of genuine parts still existent to assemble full daggers. The only problem then would be to apply the etching, and it looks to me as if semi-skilled craftsmen did just that, as shown by the terrible quality of the lettering and makers marks. How else to explain the last dagger shown-how crooked the motto was applied, if not for the fact that the quality controls were no longer in place and the only concern was to crank them out as quickly as possible to sell them to the souvenir hungry occupying troops before they could roll on to the next town and beyond? The grip on the last one shows no obvious or visible signs of ever having been carried and used. The wooden grips were always being bumped against the hanger rings and other bits and almost always show-especially on the reverse side that was against the body. Money in the ruined post-war Germany was a Hugely critical problem-a matter, literally, of life and death to the survivors and selling easily assembled daggers from bins of parts in defunct factories would have been a God send. Alot of supposition and logic, but, unfortunately no way to definitively prove any of it...
    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  7. #16

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    Great Detective work Gerrit !!
    Some of these companies outsourced their dagger orders to sub contractors for assembly only...or gathered the parts themselves and had someone else do it. Which gives me more incentive now to start a thread on such companies. 2 Known sub contractors for example..one being "Adlerwerk" who supplied blade blanks..and another company named "Max Schmahl" who undertook the process of blade etching. I am using this as an example and a possibility of a company who performed these outsourced tasks. I dont know for a fact if Helbig during the transitional period relied on other companies to complete their orders.

    What is seen though during the transitional period is the craftmanship is still present...but noticeably further away from the early quality dagger types. This Transitional dagger looks more of a Late RZM type quality and fittings.
    IMO I would lean more on a parts dagger a blade left over from the transitional period parted with Late fittings. The etch process on this particular producer..... looks to have been done in a convenient store ' Speedy Mart " which shows the lack of knowledge and skill of a few highschool students with a meat slicer.

    Helbig was more of a Luftwaffe producer than an SA producer...but yet produced decent early SA daggers..so why the lazy attempt a few years later on an etch process? ...or is it the outsourced theory. Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  8. #17
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    Helbig also make SA daggers which are the RZM type M7/73 FuA Helbig, Steinbach

    Same poor etching to the motto & RZM # & the same thick crossguards,

    JR is the man to ask if these are post war put together or not ?


    Regards Mac 66.
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  9. #18
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    Real proof would be the Original SS contract's given to Helbig in 1938.
    I dont see that happen, so looking at the Helbig SS dagger all around: on dealersites and worldwide posted on WW2 forums we have following data:
    All Helbig SS transitional apear to look alike, so made from the same batches/stock, that even makes it possible to speak from a textbook Helbig transitional, as some do in their ad.
    The batch aint that big, they do not seem to be around in large numbers.
    Grip fit to guards aint great, lower guard to throat is ok.
    The alu eagle is way to high on the grip that on all shows almost no wear.
    The blade could well be an Original blank thats been etched later.
    They all have a very Bad shallow etch, not looking professional.
    Perhaps even adjusted looking at the Original shallow etch Helbig produced on the LW fliegermesser.

    Personally i dont think that an etch like this would pass the RZM controle test.
    Most likely the Helbig SS transitionals are post war build.

    Regards,
    Ger

  10. #19
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    Thanks Mac for your reply!
    What Always strikes me is that the SA daggers grips overal have a way better fit then the SS daggers.
    Perhaps because they produced way more SA then SS daggers they could easily fit the softwood grips of the SA daggers then the hardwood grip of the SS daggers.

    Regards,
    Ger

  11. #20
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    Quote by gerrit View Post
    Thanks Mac for your reply!
    What Always strikes me is that the SA daggers grips overal have a way better fit then the SS daggers.
    Perhaps because they produced way more SA then SS daggers they could easily fit the softwood grips of the SA daggers then the hardwood grip of the SS daggers.

    Regards,
    Ger
    Hi Ger,


    Yes that can be the truth about the Helbig SA grips being a better fit than Helbig SS grips,

    Here is a few links to these Helbigs on WAF : German SS Dagger - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums


    Helbig Transitional SS Dagger - Need Opinions... - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums


    Regards Mac 66.

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