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Open discussion about SS transitional Daggers by Helbig, are they genuine or 1960s fakes?

Article about: Gents I would like to hear your opinions about a transitional Helbig SS dagger: did they produce this dagger post or pre WW2 I have seen some sold by big sellers , even those who wrote the b

  1. #1
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    Default Open discussion about SS transitional Daggers by Helbig, are they genuine or 1960s fakes?

    Gents I would like to hear your opinions about a transitional Helbig SS dagger: did they produce this dagger post or pre WW2
    I have seen some sold by big sellers , even those who wrote the books, easy to find them still as cache on Google.
    There are also posts on forums like WAF that say these are Atwood fakes from the early 60ths
    The dagger that i post here does not belong to me its just for supporting this post with pics.
    Ron Wienand states about exactly the same dagger as the one i posted the pics from, following:
    i quote:
    Photo acid etched motto, eagle is too high in the grip, crossguards are too thick top to bottom, I could go on and on about these Atwood imports post war, but either you are convinced or you still believe. I can only advise on my experiences during the period. I grew up with the fakes and experience is the best teacher. Ron Weinand

    Others say just the opposite: Helbig is in fact know for its bad very shallow etching, so Gents your opinions please!!

    Regards,
    Ger
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    Last edited by gerrit; 06-02-2014 at 09:43 PM.

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  3. #2

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    Ger,
    I have a dagger from the same maker and am enclosing a photo for your perusal. My makersmark seems much deeper than your example. Don't know if yours is pre or post I simply enclose the photo for comparison. Cheers.
    Ramon
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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  4. #3
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    Hi Ramon,

    Thx for posting your logo of a LW 1st pattern, but thats not what this post is about.
    The discussion is not about the depth of the Helbig etch, the advanced collector knows the helbig etch often lacks depth, its about following: is this SS dagger a genuine TR produced piece or a postwar build Fake.
    So i would like pictures and opinions of Helbig (transitional) SS daggers only...

    Regards,
    Ger

  5. #4

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    Hey gerrit,
    All we can do is look at the facts;
    a) theres a claim by a collector possibly with earlier experience than tom wittman himself that tells us they are bad and produced early sixties
    b) These helbig SS daggers lack the overall quality compared to the other SS dagger manufactures.
    c) Its is arguable would they have passed the strict RZM control?

    From a collectors point of view there is no shortage of SS daggers on the market so why take any chances when you have all them other quality makers to choose from?

    Best matty

  6. #5

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    Quote by mattty01 View Post
    Hey gerrit,
    All we can do is look at the facts;
    a) theres a claim by a collector possibly with earlier experience than tom wittman himself that tells us they are bad and produced early sixties
    b) These helbig SS daggers lack the overall quality compared to the other SS dagger manufactures.
    c) Its is arguable would they have passed the strict RZM control?

    From a collectors point of view there is no shortage of SS daggers on the market so why take any chances when you have all them other quality makers to choose from?

    Best matty
    While from time to time I've had some specific (issue) disagreements with Ron, I personally would go along with him on these types of Helbigs. With the pinnacle IMO of the fake Helbig "SS"daggers being one that was modified to a chained M 1936 configuration. In other words one layer of fakery on top of another fake. And if I remember it correctly, it sold to some fool (IMO) for $10,000 who took the dealer's word that it was good ........... but the dagger itself screamed FAKE!! Best Regards, Fred

  7. #6

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    I would not own one....
    Had good advice? Saved money? Why not become a Gold Club Member, just hit the green "Join WRF Club" tab at the top of the page and help support the forum!

  8. #7

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    Is there such thing as a dual marked helbig blade? I can only recall seeing maker or rzm never both together.

    matty

  9. #8

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    Poor conditioned and first time seen variant type daggers should be approached very cautiously. As Rare as Ernst Rohms dual rune gripped dagger? One needs to tread lightly when approaching the unknown. Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  10. #9

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    Has there Ever been one that has been found in Decent condition? The weak etch and the poor quality construction always impress me as contrived. It is not a dagger that I would want. Too controversial and too many elaborate stories to explain away the inconsistencies.
    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  11. #10
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    So it could be these daggers are made for the relic-hungry occupants in the rubble of the reich?
    Or do you mean US made 1st generation fakes?

    Excuse my ignorance, but i do not collect these daggers.
    Collect ROA, Cossack, Schuma and other WW2 Volunteer militaria.

    "Be Humble and kind, for you may find that it was Odin you entertained"

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