" Pattern " SS Honor Dagger Scabbard

**greimers** · 01-12-2012, 01:54 PM

lieve this thread has deteriorated from my original intent, it has perhaps made others aware that originality is not text book.

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 01-12-2012 01:54 PM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**Larry C** · 01-12-2012, 10:37 PM

I think text book in some peoples thinking is that all products are made the same,,, which is not true for this time era. Alot of this stuff was hand assembled and chased,, not one is alike if you look under a jewelers loupe,, there are always some kind of discrepancies visual and non visual to the eye. I know i have said this before somewhere but as collectors we have only scratched the surface in knowing anything about this hobby,, and we can only go by what is common by the amount of the same types seen over and over again and deem them "text book",, which is not true. because we see 100 daggers from the same maker does not make them text book,, but assumed because it has the same characteristics. Specialty daggers were not production made,, Dont take offense Greimers ,, i dont think anyone has any malicious intent. We are all in this together as Talltom has said. As collectors we try to learn as much about the original example as much as possible from material usage and style,,, now the real battle is trying to learn what the fakers are doing. Best regards to you Larry

**cogwheel** · 01-12-2012, 11:12 PM

I totally agree. My understanding of 'text book' is that the items in question conform to pictures and descriptions of books written and published on the subject. It is also important to read and try to understand the texts in their entirety. We have to keep in mind that these daggers were finished and assembled by hand which already precludes completely identical items. Each item is an individual and always varies to some degree from the other. You can have two daggers made by the same maker, finished and assembled by the same person within the same time frame and you still can find small differences. Most text books, like the ones by Tom Wittmann, explain that in the written text, but one would never know or suspect unless one actually reads those books instead of drawing one's conclusion from the pictures alone.

**kingtiger** · 05-10-2012, 03:55 PM

In my dealings with Tom Johnson, he has always been a real gentleman and if he described that scabbard as pre 1945, the guarantee of that should have no time limit on that fact. Tom is very cordial and personally I trust him to do the right thing if anything is not right. He has really held himself to a higher standard than the worm dealers that permeate the hobby.

Cogwheel certainly knows more that 3/4's of the "dealers" out there.

Mark

**Lowboy** · 05-16-2012, 05:04 AM

I found this..... same??

SS Oak Leaf Motif Honor Scabbard.This MINT SS Honor Scabbard was assembled from original parts in the early 1990's and is correct in every detail. Black, grained leather shell is perfect with no wear or damage and is correctly "butted" to the upper and lower scabbard fitting edges, but no beneath them. The upper and lower nickel-silver scabbard fittings are MINT with no wear to the highlights or to the factory darkening in the recesses of the raised oak leaf motif. Normally no scabbard retaining screws are used on these scabbard fittings, as the fittings are stamped as part of the shell. However, a shown on pages 285 and 286 of Exploring The Dress Daggers and Swords of the German SS by Thomas T. Wittmann this scabbard has upper screws to secure the scabbard throat as well a lower screws to give the "fittings" a uniform appearance. MINT/Unissued (25813) $8,500. HOLD

**kingtiger** · 05-16-2012, 02:04 PM

by Lowboy

I found this..... same??

SS Oak Leaf Motif Honor Scabbard.This MINT SS Honor Scabbard was assembled from original parts in the early 1990's and is correct in every detail. Black, grained leather shell is perfect with no wear or damage and is correctly "butted" to the upper and lower scabbard fitting edges, but no beneath them. The upper and lower nickel-silver scabbard fittings are MINT with no wear to the highlights or to the factory darkening in the recesses of the raised oak leaf motif. Normally no scabbard retaining screws are used on these scabbard fittings, as the fittings are stamped as part of the shell. However, a shown on pages 285 and 286 of Exploring The Dress Daggers and Swords of the German SS by Thomas T. Wittmann this scabbard has upper screws to secure the scabbard throat as well a lower screws to give the "fittings" a uniform appearance. MINT/Unissued (25813) $8,500. HOLD

I don't think you can have it both ways. Either it had no scabbard screws, yet this one does. It may be original parts, but it is neither period made nor constructed w/o screws. Fot that much coinage, I would have a hard time forking over that much for one admittedly made in the 1990's and modified from the original construction. Tom is quite honest in his description in any event.

Mark

**Larry C** · 05-17-2012, 12:23 AM

This is my personal collecting opinion only,,and should not be taken as negative,,.. but something that was recently assembled during the 1990s with period parts,,... and then to marry it to a prospective dagger that has some age to it would be very difficult. It would be a needle in a haystack ..OR... a very long wait to actually find a stone mint dagger, with the correct toning and patina. The chances are greater to marry an early SA/SS em scabbard, as the patina and condition would be close to matching,, but then again Nickel silver is easy to work with and patination returns after some years. I agree with Mark on this one ,, and in respect to being a "Purist',, I would not be comfortable knowing in the back of my head that the dagger and scabbard were not mated in the beginning. For me it would be a tough sell and I dont want to take out any unneccessary" fluff" out of my mattress account. I want to be able to sleep at night!

**Adrian Stevenson** · 05-17-2012, 07:28 AM

It would not be for me either, especially with that kind of price tag.

Cheers, Ade.

**Dean** · 05-17-2012, 08:19 AM

I agree with Ade. Besides, at that price, you might as well buy a regular original SS dagger, IMO.

**greimers** · 05-17-2012, 10:01 AM

The recent scabbard on Johnsons site is indeed very similar in construction to mine originally posted. My scabbard was not reconstructed in the 1990's. I have never intended to "marry" my scabbard with an honor dagger, something I think would be impossible to do anyway. The price asked for the scabbard on Johnsons Site is reasonable I believe. A complete SS Honor dagger featuring the Oakleaf adorned scabbard would sell for $80000 to $100000 (plus), of that I would attribute $30000 to the scabbard, $20000 to the crossguards and grip, $30000 - $40000 for the damascus blade. I would happily pay 1/3 the price for , as an example, a stripped SS tunic reconstructed with original insignia and thread, as long as it has been openly and honestly described as such.

Regards, Grant.