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SS Dagger 4459

Article about: Hi, I have bought an early SS dagger maker Gottlieb Hammesfahr with member number 4459 on the crossguard. I send a mail to Ross Kelbaugh and got good news. Hi Bart: Thanks for the inquiry. G

  1. #21


    One Word:

    Photos can be deceiving , hands on examination is the key & best way to deter authenticity

    Live & Learn
    Last edited by Mac 66; 01-01-2016 at 09:21 PM.

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  3. #22


    Yes, my first posting did,indeed, mention that the number was no certainty of being authentic and it naturally enough, is still not. And, as you wrote above, after that, the discussion moved on to focus on the Grip,which is why I did not mention the number again.

    Bartvan, I don't know what you want to hear or what you expect. The grip is not proper for this dagger. If Siegert thinks it is, then I would have to question his judgement. I'll assume here that Siegert does not issue his certificates gratis. Sometimes, it happens that people do not hear what they want or need to hear when putting an item up for vetting, and I'm sorry that you feel this way, but I have been collecting, handling and inspecting German daggers-SS in particular-for over a half a century now and this is just the way that it is. I have owned and held and looked at countless daggers over time. I suggest that you use this site the way it was intended for collectors to do so. We have plenty of good clear photos of originals here and it is relatively easy to look at them and compare one in hand to them. If they look Exactly the same as your item-then you know that it is likely fine. But if there are Differences-even small ones-then you must question your item. Arguing and talking your way around it is of no value to anyone.

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  4. #23


    Before we say to much about Ralf Siegerts judgement, I think it is important that we check this have definitely been certified by him.

    We all know how things are easily forged. Its not fair on Ralf if this information isn't correct.

    Im sure you all understand.

    Ps. You should never open a numbered SS dagger, even more so if its assigned to somebody like this is.

    rgds matty

  5. #24


    Hi Bart... Everyone makes mistakes ..dealers as well as only collectors ...ALL are not immune to imperfection.

    COAs..I throw out the window as they are worth the paper they are printed on.

    The real worth or value of any ones knowledge. Never should it be only left in the decision of someone is yours to uphold the responsibility to yourself to make sure ( 2nd 3rd and 4th opinions ) that what you are about to spend in large amounts is all correct.

    When I buy a car..I bring a car salesman friend with me..who knows about salesmen tactics... I seek the 2nd opinion all the time. Dealers are just what they are "Dealers".....some reputable and some are not.
    Always no matter who it must be you who is the last stop in making a decision,..and if it requires another set of eyes then so be will learn from those eyes for the next time. That is how experience is attained.

    We have all fallen prey to ourselves for sometimes being too proud. Myself included so many times. I do promise you one here is going to make you look bad..or I will surely step in with heavy feet and stomp anything negative flat !!

    What I have heard throughout this whole thread is all purely constructive of a dagger with questionable details. A reputable dealer of integrity will accept a return.

    I can not comment on the SS I am not qualified to give advice on..which I would seek the advice of those who study number fonts.

    Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  6. #25


    Hi, as I got it right, people even doubt the authenticity of the certificate?! So where does this stop? Am I someone then who put some random numbers in a crossguard of a Gottlieb Hammesfahr dagger with a Herder grip and, since no one buys my coup de force, decided to put a fake certificate here. I have sent the dagger to Ralf the 12th of december and got it back yesterday with the certificate. I have to trust Ralf on this. He had the change to check hand in hand. I have indeed mailed him again, and he states that all of the pieces belong together! The dagger left the factory this way. So stupid of me to open it for sure. And again, wood changes over the years.
    I have had the idea of looking further for the numbers too. But even then. If someone proves they are 70 yo through C-14 dating for example what will it give me? Someone will always feed the fire. I understand the doubt remains here. And that's a pity.

  7. #26


    Bart, I can understand your frustration and annoyance.
    However, the detailed responses here to your dagger are from an experienced SS blade collector group. The comfort zone of a dealer supplied or a purchased coa is, you will learn, very fragile.
    Elsewhere a huge mis-selling scandal has recently blown up concerning SS combat helmets where a long accepted SS decal type, the champagne rune, has been proven to be an airbrush fake. The worth of the very many coas' issued over the years will now be tested.
    Better to get the vendor's permit to post a prospective SS dagger buy on a specialised forum for impartial advice before committing.

  8. #27


    Nothing more can be said about this dagger,,as your mind is made up..and the knowledged opinions of seasoned collectors have relatively matched. one is accusing you of wrong doing at all...where you get these thoughts of one has said. Just you ! The dagger is under question not you !

    If you feel you need further Opinions on this have the right as I have stipulated in my post above to gain more opinions..even if you dont like what has been expressed here. I would encourage you to take to the GDC Gents for further evaluation. German Daggers

    Ask For Kreta who specializes in SS daggers amongst other Knowledged Researchers and Collectors there. Sorry our service and resources were of no value to you. We wish you the best..and yours is the right decision for which is your right to decide what is best. We Offered a service for free to you at no cost from a combined few hundred years of experience if not more.
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  9. #28


    I'm with William and of course my "dear old friend" Larry!!

    Try to get your hard earned money back! That's the only way. Larry,absolutely
    right,if you throw it out of the window!


  10. #29

    Thumbs down

    Got the "owner" of this dagger in question.It doesn't surprise me!
    It belongs to an Oberführer
    "What else......" as Mr. Clooney says!
    And this CoA doesn't mentioned the former owner of this piece??? A dagger with such a background and a high leader would sell easily for much more $ or €

    It is very easy to research this number..
    Come on.......

    Same with the dagger of Max Henze,which I posted on WAF.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture SS Dagger 4459  

  11. #30


    Wrong person!
    Last edited by kreta1961; 01-02-2016 at 01:04 PM.

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