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SS Dagger 4459

Article about: Hi, I have bought an early SS dagger maker Gottlieb Hammesfahr with member number 4459 on the crossguard. I send a mail to Ross Kelbaugh and got good news. Hi Bart: Thanks for the inquiry. G

  1. #31


    Hi, this is going nowhere. Larry suggested as a moderator to put an end to this discussion. But what Kreta does as an expert is not correct. It is not professional too. This is the man I should get in touch with like you suggest?! My dagger is questioned, the number is questioned, Ralf's expertise and myself. I am new here, like I said. My intentions were good. I needed help or feedback. The only thing I read here that makes sense after all is that pictures cannot be used in an expertise, in the end you need to see the item hand in hand. Ralf asked rightaway to send it over. It is true the grip is not textbook, but Ralf states that the dagger left the factory this way. He also states that a 100 % true dagger is probably lost now.
    He, and my seller were the last ones telling me it is genuine and complete, belonging together who had to see it. This discussion fell through the floor with the Clooney comment Kreta gave and with the thumbs up added. But I can have it. I will leave this discussion now as Larry suggested. This discussion itself is becoming a fraud.

    And Kreta before you post your findings:
    The Hans Weinert you talk about in your last post is not the one this dagger is about.

    SS-Oberführer Hans Weinert, SS No. 4459, DOB. 18.01.1888, NSDAP 249 303 was assigned that SS membership number.

    Yours is born the14th of April 1887.
    So please stop making a fool of yourself, and stop bullying me (or Ralf this way). But then again. You're the expert! "What else...."

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  3. #32


    Perhaps it's a typo on Wiki,but if not i stand correct! But no one said your dagger is a fake.
    But the wooden handle and the number is very questionable. A parts dagger,imho!
    If you can't believe it here,post it on any other forum,I.e. WAF.
    And please,do not call me a fool again!

  4. #33


    Shown below are some early Hammesfahr grips,note the fit and also one,of a few details,which is very common on early grips by this company!
    For sure,JR and others can confirm it!
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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  5. #34


    Hi Bart,

    its a pity that you take it all very personally.
    We can easily say all parts of your dagger are genuine, but as you can see the grip is not a "Textbook" Hammersfahr grip.
    We Always seek for characteristics that determen a dagger, your grip is not the type/shape that Hammerfahr used on its early daggers.
    Therefore NO ONE can confirm you that it has left the factory this way.
    No one can also confirm you when or by who the number is applied, that is Always hard to prove.

    If you are happy with this dagger knowing that it not have the standard Textbook grip that Hammerfahr used, then keep the dagger.

    best regards,


  6. #35


    It may be the right type of grip but it fits poorly that is obvious. There is just too much of a gap there on the one side.
    However it is your dagger and your decision. I would not of bought it because of the grip to crossguard issues.

  7. #36


    That grip eagle is wrong I just looked in Siegert book Service Daggers of the SS that is not a Hammesfahr eagle. The gaps are on the right side only.
    One someone says that most SS Daggers have had their parts interchanged basically that is a disclaimer.

  8. #37


    Quote by Raymond270 View Post
    That grip eagle is wrong I just looked in Siegert book Service Daggers of the SS that is not a Hammesfahr eagle.
    Raymond please do not Judge a dagger based on 1 reference book, better is to base it on years of knowledge or handling these ones througout the years.
    Not all that is printed is acurate or correct.....


  9. #38


    Quote by gerrit View Post
    Raymond please do not Judge a dagger based on 1 reference book, better is to base it on years of knowledge or handling these ones througout the years.
    Not all that is printed is acurate or correct.....



  10. #39


    Alot to address here:

    Im getting close to closing this thread as I stated multi times prior all has been exhausted in research from the knowledged of the forum. The thread is leaning on becoming personal.....
    .....and Bart..I extended you my protection ( or my heavy feet ) that no one will be disrespected...yet that same courtesy also goes to the other members here..which none will be name called. Not having it.

    What Ralf Siegert sells , is no different than any other dealer..and I dont care who it I stated multi times prior ..the last stop is oneself. Dont take to a Cement mason..what is reserved for a Medical Doctors abilities. To this day which also for most of us..if not all ..I know i will always continue to ask questions due to uncertainty in this hobby from my mentors. Im not proud that way.that i will know it all..and many of the members here know i have openly admitted that.

    This photo below is true and clear in this hobby..and has been seen throughout this website countless times ..the photo says it all..not for the faint of heart sometimes the truth be revealed ..when necessary to dig deeper. Yes it gets messy.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The messy I can account for in Kretas research..and none of it was meant as disrespect. This hobby has alot of good and bad..and the bad is more prevalent when encountering SS stamped numbers on daggers. This in itself is a minefield.
    A part of the blood seen in the photo in some circumstances could be a recently applied stamped number onto a dug deep enough in surgery. On of the scariest things to encounter is that anyone can do this with a punch set and an SS mann service list ( Dienstalterliste ) .

    That task is beyond me..and is reserved for my Dr friends who would know better than myself.
    This dagger stands as it is..nothing will change the opinions stated here from the many years of study...this too I said prior.

    No one is attacking you Bart..nor Ralf ..the dagger is in question only.

    Switching Gears........... @ Raymond 270 I know you have a genuine desire to learn and to be a part of the community here..and i always encourage discussion from anyone..I would encourage you to take heed to Member Gerrits advice and not lean on one book as a reference source. From what i can see in your past post had one dagger related thread with no photos in regards to a Rohm dagger.

    I would encourage reading of the many SS related threads here to give you an idea what is comparable to Hammesfahr daggers.

    Other than that Gents Im getting close to closing this thread..unless some 11th hour new evidence surfaces from an 80yr old producer ..that will keep this thread alive. Every angle was addressed and from the hobbys top researchers. The dagger is what it is !

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  11. #40


    So are you saying the eagle is correct on the first photos

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