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SS Dagger 4459

Article about: Hi, I have bought an early SS dagger maker Gottlieb Hammesfahr with member number 4459 on the crossguard. I send a mail to Ross Kelbaugh and got good news. Hi Bart: Thanks for the inquiry. G

  1. #41


    Sorry, I'm late to The Party. Well, opinions and CoA's, ...what's new and what does the evidence actually show? For one, the shown grip is not a Hammesfahr, as seen in JR's example. Of all the grips that look unique or different from other makers it is the Herder. That's what the subject Hammesfahr's grip looks like- A Herder grip.
    The photos show that the Herder grip fits poorly to the contours of both the upper and lower crossguards. The photos also shows that the lower crossguard fit to the scabbard throat fitting is off, showing 'air' ( however, that can also be from the dagger being improperly sheathed.)

    That's just what I see from the photos. So, I have to ask, how can a expert who has this example 'In Hand' not see the same thing as I do ? A expert can tell a Herder grip walking up to a table at a show from 6 feet away.

    I don't mean to be blunt, but to me this is a "parts daggers". A CoA and the books they write are only as good as the authors own personal knowledge.
    The author of this CoA, got it wrong. Period.

    I would send it to another expert for a second opinion who will tell you what most of us are stating here, and return this monster, or if you keep it then - Love it Forever.

    Happy New Year Everyone !

    Best of The Hunt in 2016,

  2. # ADS
    Circuit advertisement SS Dagger 4459
    Join Date

  3. #42


    I don't wish to pollute the discussion, but wanted to post this additional photo of a Hammesfahar that I had owned. I do know that this maker often had grips that were not as good as some of the other makers.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture SS Dagger 4459   SS Dagger 4459  

    SS Dagger 4459  

  4. #43


    Well said Larry.
    and this is what i meant with.."what else"or should i say,i´am not impressed or it doesn't surprise it what you like.
    It has been never against a Person,just the dagger in question.
    Once you`ll be a long time experienced collector and you'll see the differences between good and bad,i´m sure.
    They all have the same problem,ss daggers don´t fall like manna from heaven,

  5. #44


    You know, I've been down to the "whipping post" before, as the new guy on various forums. And I can tell you, it ain't no fun. And I can imagine Bart's frustration with the same here.

    When ever you have an SS dagger which flows properly, but has a fitment challenge with the grip, these can be extremely problematic. We don't like it, but they have to be analyzed and thought through, by collectors and dealers alike. If you are seeking advise from others to help you with a decision, you sort through it and take it all into consideration.

    In the end, you decide what is right for you.

    As I posted a couple of Hammesfahr grips to perhaps help with the discussion, here are a couple of Herder examples to look at as well.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture SS Dagger 4459   SS Dagger 4459  

  6. #45


    Keep in mind that the initial poster has now invested considerable money and time into this piece. There was the initial purchase price...the researching by Ross Kelbaugh and then the cost to ship the dagger to Ralf Siegert in Germany and to pay for his inspection and certificate as well. Add this all together, and you are looking at a considerable outlay of money. It is certainly understandable that to hear, after all this, that the dagger is one that has been tampered with, and ,naturally enough, such news must come as very disturbing. Unfortunately, however, things like this do happen and being dismayed and in disbelief over it changes nothing. I think that most all collectors encounter such things at one time or another over the years. I can only hope, myself, that the Seller of this dagger will offer a refund and that eventually the poster will, indeed, find a problem free dagger that can sit in his collection with the pride and satisfaction that should accompany such a purchase. It will, of course, not pay back the other costs, but perhaps this all has been a learning experience for him and that the knowledge will be worth it at the end of the day. None of us enjoy giving bad news.

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  7. #46


    SS Dagger 4459

    Here is an untouched Boker with a pretty big gap. Normally one would think twice before saying this is a good Boker(we all know how good they look^^)
    But like is mentioned before, every dagger should be analysed. It can always be that a dagger with a bad grip gets through, it`s just something that didn`t happen often.

    nowadays we don`t mind the low quality of a lot items(became part of our culture), but back in the 30`s German workers did want to make a good quality piece. Making a good grip today and bad one tomorrow is just something that was not done. It was a big honor to make daggers for the SS....( the culture in the days of the Reich)

    Regards, Job

  8. #47


    Hello Job, Yes, there is a sizeable gap on the top guard, of course, but the grip still fits well to the guard regardless. If you look at the original poster's example, and follow the lines down the grip to the guards, neither top nor bottom line up well. It is not only a matter of the gaps, but the actual fit itself into the guards that is most concerning. Your Boker shown is a fine looking piece!

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  9. #48


    For the untrained eye .. the collector likes to mostly rely on salty untouched examples..which these days of highly messed daggers including myself..the more untouched..the less messed with..and closer to the individual who owned it.

    Polished or cleaned up daggers .. are challenging for those beginners and even the intermediate. They tend to throw the brakes own approaching it like a thug standing on a street corner. Afraid to say anything about fear of some type of backlash. These daggers could or could not be authentic because of being cleaned up..which requires a little more attention that the dagger with the heavy patina.

    The intermediate after years of study, collecting or constant hands on study, becomes the knowledgeable ..seeing daggers a mile away and identifying them at a glance.
    Bokers are the highly sought after in SS daggers by most to all collectors..having the quality and craft..and that scary looking but cool Logo of what may resemble to most as a "Tree seen through a Mausoleum Window "

    Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  10. #49


    yea Wagriff the Boker is nice and i still like it, but i am not sure yet.

    The blade is really good and so is the nickle. Down side is the scabbard, it is in real bad shape, if i buy the dagger i have to do something about it.

    SS Dagger 4459

  11. #50


    but, according to this low membership number and his promotion to an Sturmführer at the 1.April 1932 i'm sure it has to be a Röhm dagger!

    And i don't see any evidence of a former dedication on this dagger in question!
    Perhaps you'll buildt your own opinions.


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