SS Dagger Feedback

[nickrabbo]

Hello all,

My uncle has moved to Germany and left me a few pieces, one of them being this dagger. Since I am no expert, I wanted to post it here to get some feedback. I tried putting into my photo light box to get some more light but I did take the pictures with my phone so please forgive me if they are not clear. There is chipping on the grip near the cross-guards. Metals seem to be magnetic. The blade itself seems like it's seen some better days, the acid etch is still visible but not dark and pronounced. Scabbard has paint chips. I tried my best to make the markings on the back of blade and from what I can tell, it's RZM 1163/38 SS, F.&A. Helbig, Stienbach KRM. Thank you for any input.

[Larry C]

Seems as though your Uncle got around as someone else posted this same dagger here questioning the grip color.

Suspicious SS Dagger - Brown handle?

Your excellent photos are giving me 2nd thoughts on the authenticity of the grip and the rest of the dagger.
Its amazing those who purposely photograph edged weapons know how to use the right lighting and the use of shadows to hide something others should not see.

I will wait for the community to view this same dagger under a better light and give their thoughts.

[Larry C]

Im very curious of how the first photos came about from Member Naptime verses the story of the uncle in this thread.
I feel someone went out of their way to stain this grip

[bsiwula1]

Hello. It's very hard to get a clear picture of what this piece is as a whole. But breaking it down piecemeal, the the parts do not fit the knife's narrative IMO. Condition of the components vary wildly which should be the focus of the discussion. The blade wear is non consistent with any other piece of the assembly (scabbard, tang nut and crossguards especially). As I didn't chime in with the grip color discussion in the previous thread I will say this about the grip, on the angled photo the opening cut out for the eagle and swas looks somewhat crude compared to the direct overhead view. The eagle and swas wreath look to have peen like damage to them at the 12 at 2 o clock positions in the overhead view of the grip. To me it looks like orbital sanding marks on the upper portion of the grip where the damage previously mentioned can be seen. And lastly like the whole piece, the grip eagle' s condition and runic round insert do not match the wear to one another, and again to the whole assembly. A lot of big ???. Kindest regards.

Brian

[nickrabbo]

LOLLL...I always find it funny when I somehow stumble upon forum posts regarding myself or something relating to me posted by other people. It has happened before on a Volvo enthusiast forum. But at the same time, I can't really blame user naptime for wanting to know more about the dagger, pretty much the same thing that has lead me here too.

Thank you Larry and Brian for the feedback!

Yes, those pictures from the previous thread of naptime's were indeed taken by me as well. Granted, at a time that I thought I was looking at an "old war knife" and nothing that special. I know, my ignorance. Here's a little background on this story. My uncle, who has been an avid collector of everything under the sun for the last 40 years, has collected antique timepieces, old Persian rugs, hundreds of hummels, china, silverware, old Leica photography items, antique furniture, etc etc etc. Recently, he has decided to move to Germany and oversee his farms and his honeybees that he has had there for some time. To make the move easier on him, he literally spent his time until his last days here in the states selling off all his collectibles one by one. It was insane to see because all these collectibles that he owned, I had seen them over the years growing up and it was unfathomable to ever think of my uncle without thinking of these items. But life changes and you have to adapt to what you're given and my uncle felt it was best to open the doors to another chapter in his life.

Now onto the dagger itself, prior to my uncle's departure, he gave me a bunch of last minute items that he didn't have time to sell off and this dagger was one of them. So similar to the other stuff he gave me, I had listed this dagger to sell and at the time of my posting, all I knew was that it was a German Nazi dagger. I listed it on the selling websites for a small $300 because I didn't know any better and I eventually had to take down the ads because the messages were coming in nonstop. I would like to buy your dagger, can you ship to NY and I'll pay the extra shipping fee, can you ship to XYZ, can you list it on eBay and I can pay with PayPal to protect the transaction, etc etc etc. Mind you, these aren't the usual selling website scammers, these were real people that legit wanted to purchase this dagger asap. So I had to respectfully withhold and reconsider what I had since I've never seen such a large demand for an item. That's what lead me to doing some research and ultimately finding out some of the history of these daggers, their collectibility, and the prices some would sell for. So yes, long story short, those pictures from the previous thread were pictures I took to sell on some selling websites. The black table it was on is my dining room table from Ikea

The theory of the grip losing its dye over time due to dagger owner using it a lot or always having his hand on it seems plausible to me. It definitely looks like it has its fair share of use, this wasn't a dagger that was kept mint or kept in the scabbard untouched. Which always led me and others to think, did they really use these in close hand to hand combat or training or was this a war item like a medal that you would be given just for status or achievement. The first thoughts that came to anyone I showed the dagger to were always, "Man, I wonder what this dagger has done/seen in its day because it definitely looks like the owner used it."

Thank Goodness I didn't decide to "clean" this dagger as I thought about doing so. Someone mentioned I should keep it as is and not mess or tinker with anything so that's exactly what I'm going to do.

[Larry C]

Great Story Nick ...and welcome to the forum !!
When entering into discussion forums such as these and the topics encompass mainly the Edged Weapon...we take the story that comes along with it and put it safely up on a temporary shelf ..to revert back to later once a discussion ensues about the dagger itself including..Quality Craft and material usage.

So with your request for feed back on the dagger...this thread will examine such in depth.
Once the community here comes to an agreement of the dexterity of the dagger...then we go back to the " Safe shelf " to retrieve the story that came along with it ...which in turn will narrow down further any discrepancies in details in warranted.

Throughout this website to put it bluntly and no disrespect towards you or your uncle ...the one liner that everyone repeats here is " Buy the item first not the story " ..as it is the dagger under examination which is physical in presence of the eyes here of the collectors and researchers. The story temporarily is just words added. Again No disrespect

Lets first look at the dagger as per your request for feed back..then which ..the dagger will support the story . Sound fair ??

I do support some of the concerns Brian has stated with these most excellent photos and lighting and a few thoughts of my own which I will add later on but letting the community here give their thoughts also.

Best Regards Larry

[nickrabbo]

Great Story Nick ...and welcome to the forum !!
When entering into discussion forums such as these and the topics encompass mainly the Edged Weapon...we take the story that comes along with it and put it safely up on a temporary shelf ..to revert back to later once a discussion ensues about the dagger itself including..Quality Craft and material usage.

So with your request for feed back on the dagger...this thread will examine such in depth.
Once the community here comes to an agreement of the dexterity of the dagger...then we go back to the " Safe shelf " to retrieve the story that came along with it ...which in turn will narrow down further any discrepancies in details in warranted.

Throughout this website to put it bluntly and no disrespect towards you or your uncle ...the one liner that everyone repeats here is " Buy the item first not the story " ..as it is the dagger under examination which is physical in presence of the eyes here of the collectors and researchers. The story temporarily is just words added. Again No disrespect

Lets first look at the dagger as per your request for feed back..then which ..the dagger will support the story . Sound fair ??

I do support some of the concerns Brian has stated with these most excellent photos and lighting and a few thoughts of my own which I will add later on but letting the community here give their thoughts also.

Best Regards Larry

Yes. All of that makes absolutely perfect sense to me and I am 100% in agreement with you. Don't worry, no disrespect was taken as I agree with you and the approach you and others take. Definitely, buying the item first before the story is rational as anyone can have a very nice story for something but at the same time, it isn't 100% authentic. And what's even worse, is when the person with the story for something is indeed genuine and honest but they indeed have been duped by the person who gave or sold them the item (not saying that about me, but there is always that slight chance that wherever or whoever my uncle got it from may have been dishonest or they didn't even know as well. Never ending loop lol).

So that is why I'm here, I want to find out more about this piece, find out if I want to keep it for my personal collection or sell it, but also and most importantly, if there really is something that is a clear and telling sign to the lack of the integrity of this dagger, the LAST thing I would ever want to do is take advantage of someone by selling them something that isn't authentic. Whether I knowingly or unknowingly do that. First, it's a horrible thing to do and second, I have been on the other end of the spectrum and getting ripped off is a horrible feeling.

(My last statement was referring to when I purchased a car from an auction thinking it only needed the rear bumper to be repaired based off the physical appearance of the car. But upon receiving it and driving it for the first 2 miles, I found out it needed a new motor, the electronic suspension didn't work, the heating/ac didn't work, and to make matters even worse, the AWD system was only FWD. Car was pretty much useless. Definitely some "not nice" sellers out there for lack of more appropriate words.)

[nickrabbo]

Check this out, I found a similar dagger with a similar "ebony" grip color

SS DAGGERS SALE

That thing looks pretty brown to me, especially in the last photo with the flash shined onto it. Which got me thinking, when I took those photos to post yesterday, most if not all were brightened within my smartphone camera app so I can try and get more detail. Also, the dagger was placed in my homemade photo light box which had lights blasting all over it. Maybe that's why it came out looking so brown. So I tried something just a few minutes ago sitting at my desk. I took 4 pictures back to back, here's the methodology:

1) No overhead desk light. Straight from phone camera.
2) No overhead desk light. Brightened in the phone's camera app.
3) Overhead desk light. Straight from phone camera.
4) Overhead desk light. Brightened in the phone's camera app.

1:


2:


3:


4:

[Larry C]

If you turn the grip on its side and photograph it......you will notice it has the sharpest of contour ridging almost perfect that is opposite of the condition of the rest of the dagger. The tang nut tells another story as it has lost all its plating.

If it is as you may think that this dagger has seen battle action ..and also the dye has thinned away which should have been done by the human hand constantly holding it...would one think that those contour ridges should be worn down also?

Show the top of the upper guard facing downward please and side view pics of both sides of the dagger grip.

Im beginning to think otherwise of a post war to recent put together. No faded grip that may have been dyed will have that kind of sharp contours to it. Just isnt going to happen.

[nickrabbo]

Thank you for your response

I know it's hard to tell in the photos but it doesn't have the sharpest of contouring. I took it outside to try and get better lighting. I don't know, maybe I'm not understanding what part you're referring to, but when I look at the side of the grip directly, the edge of the grip has areas more smooth or worn than others on the same side, it's not that sharp as appeared in prior pictures. Not sure how to describe it. Also, I can see some silverish color around/under the nut, especially the piece touching the crossgaurd, which I tried to capture in the photos. Was the silver color the base color/material of the nut or was it some type of metal that was covered in that silver color? I'm trying to understand if this brownish color on the nut is something like rust on top of original finish or if the original finish wore off and left brown color, if that makes any sense.